Please Help - Does anyone know of any compound, material, substance that stays cold (or below zero) for long time at room temperature ?

[Life Science]

Does anyone know of any compound, material, substance that stays cold (or below zero) for very long time at room temperature per mass ?

If anyone can point me in the right direction, or provide that info, i would appreciate it very much.

There are ice-gel packs, they only last a few hours per Kg per room temperature, but are there any other novel substances, chemicals that can stay cold, aside from a freezer which is a mechanical device with compressor, and aside from probably pelzier elements running on batteries (sorry if i spelled it wrong).

I can't seem to find it, i know those freezer packs only last hours, or 2 days max
with insulation, and dry-ice in large quantity such as 50 lbs lasts 3-4 days in insulated large boxes, but is there something that is less than 1 Kg and can last for days or weeks ?

Thanks,
E

[Charles]

On Fri, 8 Nov 2013 16:02:37 -0800 (PST), Life Science

Post by Life Science
Does anyone know of any compound, material, substance that stays cold (or below zero) for very long time at room temperature per mass ?
If anyone can point me in the right direction, or provide that info, i would appreciate it very much.
There are ice-gel packs, they only last a few hours per Kg per room temperature, but are there any other novel substances, chemicals that can stay cold, aside from a freezer which is a mechanical device with compressor, and aside from probably pelzier elements running on batteries (sorry if i spelled it wrong).
I can't seem to find it, i know those freezer packs only last hours, or 2 days max
with insulation, and dry-ice in large quantity such as 50 lbs lasts 3-4 days in insulated large boxes, but is there something that is less than 1 Kg and can last for days or weeks ?

Sure, just be sure you keep the item somewhere where it is cold.

If the item is kept where it is warmer, you need to reduce the warming
rate by using better insulation, or use a greater mass (lower surface
area:volume ratio).

This is not rocket science. Heat flow is known technology. So is the
heat of transition (melting, etc) of everything.

[Salmon Egg]

Post by Life Science
Does anyone know of any compound, material, substance that stays cold (or
below zero) for very long time at room temperature per mass ?
If anyone can point me in the right direction, or provide that info, i would
appreciate it very much.
There are ice-gel packs, they only last a few hours per Kg per room
temperature, but are there any other novel substances, chemicals that can
stay cold, aside from a freezer which is a mechanical device with compressor,
and aside from probably pelzier elements running on batteries (sorry if i
spelled it wrong).
I can't seem to find it, i know those freezer packs only last hours, or 2 days max
with insulation, and dry-ice in large quantity such as 50 lbs lasts 3-4 days
in insulated large boxes, but is there something that is less than 1 Kg and
can last for days or weeks ?
Thanks,
E

It appears that you know little about thermodynamics or physics. First
you gave no specifications. You need to state what you are trying to do.
How much volume, ambient temperature, how much are you willing to spend
for insulation. Good dewars do a pretty good job.

In the end, you need low atomic weight and elastic modulus material and
a phase change. Essentially. look up statistical mechanics and degrees
of freedom

[Frank]

Post by Salmon Egg

Post by Life Science
Does anyone know of any compound, material, substance that stays cold (or
below zero) for very long time at room temperature per mass ?
If anyone can point me in the right direction, or provide that info, i would
appreciate it very much.
There are ice-gel packs, they only last a few hours per Kg per room
temperature, but are there any other novel substances, chemicals that can
stay cold, aside from a freezer which is a mechanical device with compressor,
and aside from probably pelzier elements running on batteries (sorry if i
spelled it wrong).
I can't seem to find it, i know those freezer packs only last hours, or 2 days max
with insulation, and dry-ice in large quantity such as 50 lbs lasts 3-4 days
in insulated large boxes, but is there something that is less than 1 Kg and
can last for days or weeks ?
Thanks,
E

It appears that you know little about thermodynamics or physics. First
you gave no specifications. You need to state what you are trying to do.
How much volume, ambient temperature, how much are you willing to spend
for insulation. Good dewars do a pretty good job.
In the end, you need low atomic weight and elastic modulus material and
a phase change. Essentially. look up statistical mechanics and degrees
of freedom

It would be interesting to know if any substance has a heat of fusion
greater than water. My quick googling did not find one and I doubt if
anything did improvement would be minor.

[Salmon Egg]

Post by Frank
It would be interesting to know if any substance has a heat of fusion
greater than water. My quick googling did not find one and I doubt if
anything did improvement would be minor.

It would indeed be difficult to beat water for cooling at room
temperature. That is why I suggested studying statistical mechanics and
degrees of freedom. The average atomic mass for water is 6. Lithium
which is the lightest solid element is 7. And its melting point is too
high to benefit from its phase change. The best bet is probably a
hydrocarbon with a very high H/C, but even that is unlikely.

There certainly are materials with high heats of fusion, but that
property (per mole) is roughly proportional to melting temperature.

[dlzc]

Dear Frank:

On Saturday, November 9, 2013 4:22:32 PM UTC-7, Frank wrote:
...

Post by Frank
It would be interesting to know if any substance
has a heat of fusion greater than water. My quick
googling did not find one and I doubt if anything
did improvement would be minor.

Metals do, just not at room temperature:
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/fusion-heat-metals-d_1266.html
... I was surprised tungsten was so low...

Probably something there to discover about latent heats of fusion, and the number of crystal structures the solid undergoes upon further cooling.

David A. Smith

[Mark Thorson]

Post by Frank
It would be interesting to know if any substance has a heat of fusion
greater than water. My quick googling did not find one and I doubt if
anything did improvement would be minor.

Tritium oxide?

[Martin Brown]

Post by Frank

Post by Salmon Egg

Post by Life Science
Does anyone know of any compound, material, substance that stays cold (or
below zero) for very long time at room temperature per mass ?
If anyone can point me in the right direction, or provide that info, i would
appreciate it very much.
There are ice-gel packs, they only last a few hours per Kg per room
temperature, but are there any other novel substances, chemicals that can
stay cold, aside from a freezer which is a mechanical device with compressor,
and aside from probably pelzier elements running on batteries (sorry if i
spelled it wrong).
I can't seem to find it, i know those freezer packs only last hours,
or 2
days max
with insulation, and dry-ice in large quantity such as 50 lbs lasts 3-4 days
in insulated large boxes, but is there something that is less than 1 Kg and
can last for days or weeks ?

Short answer is no. The trick is in insulating the cold zone extremely
well. There is not much to choose between dry ice and LN2 in a lab
setting and certainly nothing else that is worth considering.

You can get multistage Peltier devices to work down to almost dry ice
temperature - used on some cooled CCD cameras where practicalities of
working with other means of cooling make it advantageous.

Post by Frank

Post by Salmon Egg
It appears that you know little about thermodynamics or physics. First
you gave no specifications. You need to state what you are trying to do.
How much volume, ambient temperature, how much are you willing to spend
for insulation. Good dewars do a pretty good job.
In the end, you need low atomic weight and elastic modulus material and
a phase change. Essentially. look up statistical mechanics and degrees
of freedom

It would be interesting to know if any substance has a heat of fusion
greater than water. My quick googling did not find one and I doubt if
anything did improvement would be minor.

ISTR Latent heat of fusion of pure anhydrous hydrogen peroxide is
slightly more than that of water. Anhydrous ammonia might also be higher
too depending on whose figures you believe.

If you allow elements then I think the heat of fusion for graphitic
carbon at 117/kJ/mol and a molar mass of ~12.01 or so is the one to beat
at 9742 kJ/kg. (Rubber Chem Handbook 81st edn 6-122 enthalpy of fusion
of slected compounds)

[l***@gmail.com]

Post by Martin Brown

Post by Frank

Post by Salmon Egg

Post by Life Science
Does anyone know of any compound, material, substance that stays cold
(or
below zero) for very long time at room temperature per mass ?
If anyone can point me in the right direction, or provide that info,
i would
appreciate it very much.
There are ice-gel packs, they only last a few hours per Kg per room
temperature, but are there any other novel substances, chemicals that
can
stay cold, aside from a freezer which is a mechanical device with
compressor,
and aside from probably pelzier elements running on batteries (sorry
if i
spelled it wrong).
I can't seem to find it, i know those freezer packs only last hours,
or 2
days max
with insulation, and dry-ice in large quantity such as 50 lbs lasts
3-4 days
in insulated large boxes, but is there something that is less than 1
Kg and
can last for days or weeks ?

Short answer is no. The trick is in insulating the cold zone extremely
well. There is not much to choose between dry ice and LN2 in a lab
setting and certainly nothing else that is worth considering.
You can get multistage Peltier devices to work down to almost dry ice
temperature - used on some cooled CCD cameras where practicalities of
working with other means of cooling make it advantageous.

Post by Frank

Post by Salmon Egg
It appears that you know little about thermodynamics or physics. First
you gave no specifications. You need to state what you are trying to do.
How much volume, ambient temperature, how much are you willing to spend
for insulation. Good dewars do a pretty good job.
In the end, you need low atomic weight and elastic modulus material and
a phase change. Essentially. look up statistical mechanics and degrees
of freedom

It would be interesting to know if any substance has a heat of fusion
greater than water. My quick googling did not find one and I doubt if
anything did improvement would be minor.

ISTR Latent heat of fusion of pure anhydrous hydrogen peroxide is
slightly more than that of water. Anhydrous ammonia might also be higher
too depending on whose figures you believe.
If you allow elements then I think the heat of fusion for graphitic
carbon at 117/kJ/mol and a molar mass of ~12.01 or so is the one to beat
at 9742 kJ/kg. (Rubber Chem Handbook 81st edn 6-122 enthalpy of fusion
of slected compounds)
--
Regards,
Martin Brown

Martin,

I think you have the best answer so far, maybe working on an insulating material that is of "alien" origin, that can perform miracles would be a better method to keep something at about -20 C, or at least below 0 C for about 10 days. The total mass should be less than 1 or 2 Kg, and about the size of a large cup of coffee in volume maybe.

The problem, using gel-packs or dry-ice for transnational shipping of boxes that are 12" cubed or smaller, using 2" styrofoam with 2 Kg of dry ice or gel packs at room temperature with internal contents at -20 C only last 2 days on average, and even with 50 lbs of dry ice and a huge box, we're talking 5 days i think, let alone the cost of shipping.

The current solution is freezers during shipping points from China to USA for example with FEDEX, but that raises costs to hundreds or thousands of dollars.

I'm looking to find a solution, and to patent it, so if you want to discuss this more email me somehow.

I'm going to work on understanding your post a bit more, kind of technical but not out of my realm of understanding.

Thanks,
E

[dlzc]

Dear lifesci...:

On Monday, November 25, 2013 11:44:13 AM UTC-7, ***@gmail.com wrote:
...

Post by l***@gmail.com
I think you have the best answer so far, maybe
working on an insulating material that is of
"alien" origin, that can perform miracles
would be a better method to keep something at
about -20 C, or at least below 0 C for about
10 days.

Batteries and Peltier coolers, with a very high deposit on the shipping container.

Post by l***@gmail.com
The total mass should be less than 1 or 2 Kg,
and about the size of a large cup of coffee in
volume maybe.

Better to let Fedex charge your customer.

Post by l***@gmail.com
The problem, using gel-packs or dry-ice for
transnational shipping of boxes that are 12"
cubed or smaller, using 2" styrofoam with 2 Kg
of dry ice or gel packs at room temperature
with internal contents at -20 C only last 2
days on average, and even with 50 lbs of dry
ice and a huge box, we're talking 5 days i
think, let alone the cost of shipping.

Packages spend a lot of time on the tarmack, unless they are treated as needing to be kept cold (or warm, or dry).

Post by l***@gmail.com
The current solution is freezers during shipping
points from China to USA for example with FEDEX,
but that raises costs to hundreds or thousands
of dollars.

http://www.fedex.com/us/healthcare/temp-control/
... sure, because the shipper assures that the load stays cold.

Post by l***@gmail.com
I'm looking to find a solution, and to patent
it, so if you want to discuss this more email
me somehow.

You will need the buy-in of the shipper, because they can and will fail any attempt to bypass their profits.

You might get away cheaper to give to a courier, then ship refrigerated Fedex once in the country of interest.

David A. Smith

[Bruce Sinclair]

In article <fad5f467-0b86-482f-ad20-***@googlegroups.com>, dlzc <***@cox.net> wrote:
(snip)

Post by dlzc
You will need the buy-in of the shipper, because they can and will fail any
attempt to bypass their profits.
You might get away cheaper to give to a courier, then ship refrigerated Fedex
once in the country of interest.

IME, the slowest part of the delivery processes are :
1) getting the package picked up (!)
2) getting the package out of customs when it arrives in the country it's
going to (assuming they have even told you they have it (!) ).

Fedex are ... OK ... but there are specialist freight organisations for when
timing *really* matters.

[Martin Brown]

Post by dlzc
...

Post by l***@gmail.com
I think you have the best answer so far, maybe
working on an insulating material that is of
"alien" origin, that can perform miracles
would be a better method to keep something at
about -20 C, or at least below 0 C for about
10 days.

The closest in real life would be aerogel, but the cost of using it
would be astronomical so the packaging would have to be recycled.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerogel

A design that is a sandwich of basic polystyrene around the outside,
aluminium foil radiation shield then aerogel and then the dry ice and
load might get close to the required performance on a good day.

You can ameliorate ingress of heat in the sun by putting fins on the
package so that it is partially self shading like cacti and desert
dwellings with verandas. Also white exterior and mirror finish interior
of the box with air allowed to freely circulate the first outer skin.

Post by dlzc
Batteries and Peltier coolers, with a very high deposit on the shipping container.

No chance. Even a tethered system would need several amps and a very
*BIG* heatsink to dump the waste heat into.

Post by dlzc

Post by l***@gmail.com
The total mass should be less than 1 or 2 Kg,
and about the size of a large cup of coffee in
volume maybe.

Better to let Fedex charge your customer.

The requirements are impossible without the cooperation of the airline
or shipper to provide active cooling when it is on the ground.

Post by dlzc

Post by l***@gmail.com
The problem, using gel-packs or dry-ice for
transnational shipping of boxes that are 12"
cubed or smaller, using 2" styrofoam with 2 Kg
of dry ice or gel packs at room temperature
with internal contents at -20 C only last 2
days on average, and even with 50 lbs of dry
ice and a huge box, we're talking 5 days i
think, let alone the cost of shipping.

Packages spend a lot of time on the tarmack, unless they are treated as needing to be kept cold (or warm, or dry).

They often spend some of it upside down in puddles which is why we
always had tip tilt detectors on all our shipments. It takes a lot of
physical abuse to mangle a 19" rack instrument system but they did it!

Post by dlzc

Post by l***@gmail.com
The current solution is freezers during shipping
points from China to USA for example with FEDEX,
but that raises costs to hundreds or thousands
of dollars.

http://www.fedex.com/us/healthcare/temp-control/
... sure, because the shipper assures that the load stays cold.

You have to pay for this service and with good reason. I can't see them
accepting anything with LN2 onto an aircraft.

Post by dlzc

Post by l***@gmail.com
I'm looking to find a solution, and to patent
it, so if you want to discuss this more email
me somehow.

You will need the buy-in of the shipper, because they can and will fail any attempt to bypass their profits.
You might get away cheaper to give to a courier, then ship refrigerated Fedex once in the country of interest.
David A. Smith

With biological specimens you run into all sorts of delays at customs
too. A researcher I know had some specimens of elephant urine impounded
at UK customs and delayed enough to be scientifically worthless.
Everyone had forgotten about it until six months later a letter arrived
telling him that if he did not collect his specimens of stale elephant
urine they would be auctioned off at the next unclaimed items sale!

[Salmon Egg]

Post by l***@gmail.com
I think you have the best answer so far, maybe working on an insulating
material that is of "alien" origin, that can perform miracles would be a
better method to keep something at about -20 C, or at least below 0 C for
about 10 days. The total mass should be less than 1 or 2 Kg, and about the
size of a large cup of coffee in volume maybe.
The problem, using gel-packs or dry-ice for transnational shipping of boxes
that are 12" cubed or smaller, using 2" styrofoam with 2 Kg of dry ice or gel
packs at room temperature with internal contents at -20 C only last 2 days on
average, and even with 50 lbs of dry ice and a huge box, we're talking 5 days
i think, let alone the cost of shipping.
The current solution is freezers during shipping points from China to USA for
example with FEDEX, but that raises costs to hundreds or thousands of
dollars.
I'm looking to find a solution, and to patent it, so if you want to discuss
this more email me somehow.
I'm going to work on understanding your post a bit more, kind of technical
but not out of my realm of understanding.

I do not know if you are the original poster (OP) or not, but you were
already told that there are well known theoretical reasons that limit
the cooling capacity for a given mass. If you are able to discover a
useable substance that is significantly better than water, you will be
in line for a Nobel prize in addition to valuable patent rights. I will
not look for such a substance myself because the search is pointless.
Even if I believed it and found some new state of matter (very
unlikely), why would I tell you about it instead of developing it for my
own purposes? In addition, you seem to have little knowledge of kinetic
theory. You are wasting everyones time except for those like me who get
some kicks knocking down crackpot theories.

[h***@gmail.com]

I'm trying to get an idea patent but I can't seem to find a chemical that isn't completely dangerous or something that can stay cold up to more than just a few days I want it to last longer than a few times using my idea I want it to be colder longer

[r***@brickellmotors.com]

hello salmon , I need to maintain a small object like a mouse pad always cold , is there any ways or anything that maintain a cold temperature please if you happen to know I will really need that information

[r***@gmail.com]

Thanks, Sam!

I’m Liberal, and all about Natural Selection... I joke about stupid people demonstrating it often!

[kilowatt]

Try using a thick piece of aluminum ie; 4 inch x 12 x 10
no waranty but Al has a high heat latency / absorbtion factor.
worth tryin. .

kw

[l***@gmail.com]

Post by Life Science
Does anyone know of any compound, material, substance that stays cold (or below zero) for very long time at room temperature per mass ?
If anyone can point me in the right direction, or provide that info, i would appreciate it very much.
There are ice-gel packs, they only last a few hours per Kg per room temperature, but are there any other novel substances, chemicals that can stay cold, aside from a freezer which is a mechanical device with compressor, and aside from probably pelzier elements running on batteries (sorry if i spelled it wrong).
I can't seem to find it, i know those freezer packs only last hours, or 2 days max
with insulation, and dry-ice in large quantity such as 50 lbs lasts 3-4 days in insulated large boxes, but is there something that is less than 1 Kg and can last for days or weeks ?
Thanks,
E

Thanks for all your responses.
The Aerogel material is decent but fails.
The only practical solution outside of massive electronic coolers, is using freezers along the supply chain, which is way to costly.

As for the person talking about the nobel prize, you are missing the point a bit, on Mars this wouldn't be a problem, the problem is delivery of things like "urine" or temperature sensitive enzymes on time.

The science behind the cooler, maybe possible, i don't need an advanced knowledge of thermodynamics, and its not a waste of time, as this is a great forum, bc people reply. I don't have access to a faculty or massive library down the hall like many scientists.

There may be a material that can provide this type of property, and solve the problem, we just have not yet thought of it, and even if you did give me the answer, maybe you are not interested in the noble prize.

[Salmon Egg]

Post by l***@gmail.com
As for the person talking about the nobel prize, you are missing the point a
bit, on Mars this wouldn't be a problem, the problem is delivery of things
like "urine" or temperature sensitive enzymes on time.
The science behind the cooler, maybe possible, i don't need an advanced
knowledge of thermodynamics, and its not a waste of time, as this is a great
forum, bc people reply. I don't have access to a faculty or massive library
down the hall like many scientists.
There may be a material that can provide this type of property, and solve the
problem, we just have not yet thought of it, and even if you did give me the
answer, maybe you are not interested in the noble prize.

I usually avoid deriding people for their crackpot ideas, but once in a
while someone comes along who is so mentally obtuse that they need to
face a touch of reality. The science is totally clear and available, but
you refuse to look at it because it interferes with your ridiculous
preconceived notions.

One approach is via adequate insulation. You have found for yourself
that that is "to[o] expensive." The other is the wish that would be the
horse that beggars could ride. Namely, you are looking for a
non-existent material to absorb heat in an amount that is NOT POSSIBLE.
YOU WILL NEVER FIND SUCH A MATERIAL NO MATTER HOW HARD YOU TRY OR
LIBRARIES ARE SEARCHED. There is nothing magic about the theory of
specific heats and the equipartition of energy. They can easily be
looked up in Wikipedia. Quantum effects REDUCE the specific heat of a
material or the latent heat of a phase change.

The only reason I am spending so much time on the subject is to try to
reduce the number of people who will fall for this crackpot science. I
am not a fan of Coast to Coast.

I repeat, if you can find such a material that you desire empirically,
that will deserve a Nobel prize because it will revolutionize physics.

[r***@gmail.com]

Hey , give me your email address is ***@gmail.com correct?? I want to discuss it privately.. understand bro..

[i***@gmail.com]

Hi there, based on what you stated, I presume you are looking for something that stays in frozen state longer than ice. It would seem everybody wants to give you smarty pants answers leaving the answer in a quasi-ambigous statement.
Let me be simple. Frozen US carrier of WW2. Took a long time to melt if I recall correctly. This method is also used for permafrost anchoring in Alaska.

Interested?

Get a big pot perfer-ably a pressure cooker. Get lots of fine sawdust and lots of rice boil the mash till rice is mushy and super sticky.
Give light draining. Water should be 1/3 of the mash.
Mash the mash into coarse gritty paste.
Once a wet formable paste, place into mold/vessel and place into a deep freezer ( Normal freezer will do too). Once frozen, seal the new pucks if not in vessel of some sort.

Frozen mash wood last the longest for the cheapest price. Heavier than gel pack but if you have a semi decent lunch pail you should have frozen core for about 1.5 - 3 days depending on insulation and outside temperatures and how cold the targerted items ie food / refreshments / simple neutrino detector materials are before utilizing the frozen wood pulp pucks.

I hope this helps, albeit a few years late.

[f***@gmail.com]

Hey does anyone know a substance that can stay cold for an almost infinite amount of time? Cause I would like to know for an example for an invention that got an idea for.

For example say if you needed your water cold for walking in a desert the coldness of that substance could freeze the air to get fresh water.

[f***@gmail.com]

Post by f***@gmail.com
Hey does anyone know a substance that can stay cold for an almost infinite amount of time? Cause I would like to know for an example for an invention that got an idea for.
For example say if you needed your water cold for walking in a desert the coldness of that substance could freeze the air to get fresh water.

As well as putting that water in a container so you can drink cold water.

[o***@gmail.com]

Post by f***@gmail.com

Post by f***@gmail.com
Hey does anyone know a substance that can stay cold for an almost infinite amount of time? Cause I would like to know for an example for an invention that got an idea for.
For example say if you needed your water cold for walking in a desert the coldness of that substance could freeze the air to get fresh water.

As well as putting that water in a container so you can drink cold water.

A not-too-small black hole is about the only option, unless you are able to transmit the heat via extra dimensions.

Or, to quote from an episode of _Quark_, "If you heat It, It will become hot!"

If heat goes into a thing, hotness happens. There can be a phase change from solid to liquid and/or liquid to gas. Particles bounce around, things rotate or vibrate. But heat just DOESN'T go away. If you can somehow move it to another universe, or to a heat sink in a remote cold location, great, problem solved, and there's a Nobel prize waiting for you. Otherwise, if you dump lots of heat into a thing, it will get hot. That's some of the most fundamental physics we've got.

[p***@gmail.com]

If I put a bottle of water on a shelf inside a walk in freezer. What would I want the shelf made of that would make it freeze the fastest? The bottle made of? A material that perhaps stole heat away from the water quickly. Anything that could help keep the rest of the freezer from getting warmer?

[Andy Burns]

Post by p***@gmail.com
If I put a bottle of water on a shelf inside a walk in freezer. What
would I want the shelf made of that would make it freeze the fastest?
The bottle made of?

Diamond ...