Discussion:
Ozone Generator -vs- Cat Urine Spray?
(too old to reply)
s***@yahoo.com.au
2007-04-09 13:09:20 UTC
Permalink
Ozone Generator -vs- Cat Urine Spray?

I was hoping to get some advice regarding the effectiveness of a small
Ozone Generator to deal with the smell of Cat Urine Spray indoors.....by
a de-sexed male cat. He is deliberately spraying, not simply taking a
much-needed piss. He is spraying on vertical surfaces.
There is almost nothing I don't know about the "territorial behaviour
issues", prevention, and cleaning. I have spoken to the local Vet in
great detail. I use an arsenal of special cleaners, and a Pheromone
preventative spray. I have also done a great deal of personal
research. Getting rid of the cat is definitely not an option.
Can you comment about Ozone Generators and their effectiveness? Bottom
line: If the Cat spraying is a persistent problem, is a small Ozone
Generator (with thorough cleaning) money well spent?
Thanks.
t***@aol.com
2007-04-09 14:21:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@yahoo.com.au
Ozone Generator -vs- Cat Urine Spray?
I was hoping to get some advice regarding the effectiveness of a small
Ozone Generator to deal with the smell of Cat Urine Spray indoors.....
Before you think about getting one of these, read these articles.
http://www.allergyclean.com/article-whatyoushouldknowozone.htm
http://healthandenergy.com/ozone_damages_health.htm
http://www.airtesters.com/ionizers.cfm

Regards
dlzc
2007-04-09 14:40:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@yahoo.com.au
Ozone Generator -vs- Cat Urine Spray?
I was hoping to get some advice regarding the
effectiveness of a small Ozone Generator to deal
with the smell of Cat Urine Spray indoors.....by
a de-sexed male cat. He is deliberately spraying,
not simply taking a much-needed piss.
Who desexed him? It may have been the civic-minded thing to do, but
did he go voluntarily?
Post by s***@yahoo.com.au
Bottom line: If the Cat spraying is a persistent
problem, is a small Ozone Generator (with thorough
cleaning) money well spent?
If the cat were telling you what it thinks of being desexed, making it
breathe ozone until dead might cure the problem. As an occasional
area-wide treatment of unoccupied spaces, ozone works well. Otherwise
it is hazardous to breathe, hard on most polymers (like carpet
backing), and not a good idea as you intend.

Change cats. Preferably for a dog. Of course, they "mark" if male...

David A. Smith
Roger Shoaf
2007-04-09 15:12:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@yahoo.com.au
Ozone Generator -vs- Cat Urine Spray?
I was hoping to get some advice regarding the effectiveness of a small
Ozone Generator to deal with the smell of Cat Urine Spray indoors.....by
a de-sexed male cat. He is deliberately spraying, not simply taking a
much-needed piss. He is spraying on vertical surfaces.
There is almost nothing I don't know about the "territorial behaviour
issues", prevention, and cleaning. I have spoken to the local Vet in
great detail. I use an arsenal of special cleaners, and a Pheromone
preventative spray. I have also done a great deal of personal
research. Getting rid of the cat is definitely not an option.
We had a similar problem. My wife thought it was manageable until the cat
decided to piss on her pillow and she got a face full when she laid down.

Why not insist that the Mrs. diaper the cat unless he is in his sand box, in
his crate, or outside? This of course will require that the cat be bathed
on a daily basis or perhaps shaved on the diaper area so he can be cleaned
of the offending smell, but the repeated blood loss when shaving the cat
ought to go along way to convince you wife that declawing and disposing are
viable alternatives to tolerating a poorly behaved cat.

Another idea would be to have a large hollow plastic ball made and put the
cat inside. If the cat wants to spray when he is inside the ball then he can
enjoy his scent and you don't.
--
Roger Shoaf

About the time I had mastered getting the toothpaste back in the tube, then
they come up with this striped stuff.
Lawrence
2007-04-09 15:45:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@yahoo.com.au
Ozone Generator -vs- Cat Urine Spray?
I was hoping to get some advice regarding the effectiveness of a small
Ozone Generator to deal with the smell of Cat Urine Spray indoors.....by
a de-sexed male cat. He is deliberately spraying, not simply taking a
much-needed piss. He is spraying on vertical surfaces.
There is almost nothing I don't know about the "territorial behaviour
issues", prevention, and cleaning. I have spoken to the local Vet in
great detail. I use an arsenal of special cleaners, and a Pheromone
preventative spray. I have also done a great deal of personal
research. Getting rid of the cat is definitely not an option.
Can you comment about Ozone Generators and their effectiveness? Bottom
line: If the Cat spraying is a persistent problem, is a small Ozone
Generator (with thorough cleaning) money well spent?
Thanks.
You should have had your cat neutered much earlier. My vet says 4
months old is the right time. If you fail to neuter him or do it too
late that is what happens.

Of course you cannot get rid of the cat. It is your responsiblity
to give him a lifetime home. A cat that sprays is a big problem for
which there are few good solutions. You can try the ozone generator
for sure. Try everthing else you can think of as well. It will not
change the cats behaviour.

The cat is mad at you. Sometimes giving the cat some quality time
will change his behaviour. When you come home, immediatly pick the
cat up and give lots of scratches on his head and ears. Then carry
him to the bedroom and let him on your chest for a little while giving
him lots of pets. If you have been using a spray bottle to keep him
off the counters, stop doing that and all other negative style
training.

Keeping interior doors closes will confine the cat and his undesirable
activities. Something cat enthusiasts often do is give the cat his
own room complete with other cats and large climbing posts and
playthings he can play on. Then he stays in that room forever. Many
people will put down a cat that pisses on the family belongings. You
won't do it and neither will I but it is the only permanent
solution.
Roger Shoaf
2007-04-09 15:55:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lawrence
Of course you cannot get rid of the cat. It is your responsiblity
to give him a lifetime home. A cat that sprays is a big problem for
which there are few good solutions. You can try the ozone generator
for sure. Try everthing else you can think of as well. It will not
change the cats behaviour.
Yes, but as the owner of the cat, you get to decide just how long that
lifetime is.
Post by Lawrence
The cat is mad at you. Sometimes giving the cat some quality time
will change his behaviour. When you come home, immediatly pick the
cat up and give lots of scratches on his head and ears. Then carry
him to the bedroom and let him on your chest for a little while giving
him lots of pets. If you have been using a spray bottle to keep him
off the counters, stop doing that and all other negative style
training.
Keeping interior doors closes will confine the cat and his undesirable
activities. Something cat enthusiasts often do is give the cat his
own room complete with other cats and large climbing posts and
playthings he can play on. Then he stays in that room forever. Many
people will put down a cat that pisses on the family belongings. You
won't do it and neither will I but it is the only permanent
solution.
Enjoy the next 15 years of smelling cat piss and the joy you bring to the
potential owners of the home when you go to sell the place.
--
Roger Shoaf

About the time I had mastered getting the toothpaste back in the tube, then
they come up with this striped stuff.
Goedjn
2007-04-09 15:45:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@yahoo.com.au
Ozone Generator -vs- Cat Urine Spray?
I was hoping to get some advice regarding the effectiveness of a small
Ozone Generator to deal with the smell of Cat Urine Spray indoors.....by
a de-sexed male cat. He is deliberately spraying, not simply taking a
much-needed piss. He is spraying on vertical surfaces.
There is almost nothing I don't know about the "territorial behaviour
issues", prevention, and cleaning. I have spoken to the local Vet in
great detail. I use an arsenal of special cleaners, and a Pheromone
preventative spray. I have also done a great deal of personal
research. Getting rid of the cat is definitely not an option.
Can you comment about Ozone Generators and their effectiveness? Bottom
line: If the Cat spraying is a persistent problem, is a small Ozone
Generator (with thorough cleaning) money well spent?
Thanks.
Low voltage electrical grid on the baseboards.
Fred Kasner
2007-04-09 19:35:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Goedjn
Post by s***@yahoo.com.au
Ozone Generator -vs- Cat Urine Spray?
I was hoping to get some advice regarding the effectiveness of a small
Ozone Generator to deal with the smell of Cat Urine Spray indoors.....by
a de-sexed male cat. He is deliberately spraying, not simply taking a
much-needed piss. He is spraying on vertical surfaces.
There is almost nothing I don't know about the "territorial behaviour
issues", prevention, and cleaning. I have spoken to the local Vet in
great detail. I use an arsenal of special cleaners, and a Pheromone
preventative spray. I have also done a great deal of personal
research. Getting rid of the cat is definitely not an option.
Can you comment about Ozone Generators and their effectiveness? Bottom
line: If the Cat spraying is a persistent problem, is a small Ozone
Generator (with thorough cleaning) money well spent?
Thanks.
Low voltage electrical grid on the baseboards.
Then he'll find a non baseboard surface to spray. You can't win.
FK
Goedjn
2007-04-09 20:09:51 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 09 Apr 2007 14:35:09 -0500, Fred Kasner
Post by Fred Kasner
Post by Goedjn
Post by s***@yahoo.com.au
Ozone Generator -vs- Cat Urine Spray?
I was hoping to get some advice regarding the effectiveness of a small
Ozone Generator to deal with the smell of Cat Urine Spray indoors.....by
a de-sexed male cat. He is deliberately spraying, not simply taking a
much-needed piss. He is spraying on vertical surfaces.
There is almost nothing I don't know about the "territorial behaviour
issues", prevention, and cleaning. I have spoken to the local Vet in
great detail. I use an arsenal of special cleaners, and a Pheromone
preventative spray. I have also done a great deal of personal
research. Getting rid of the cat is definitely not an option.
Can you comment about Ozone Generators and their effectiveness? Bottom
line: If the Cat spraying is a persistent problem, is a small Ozone
Generator (with thorough cleaning) money well spent?
Thanks.
Low voltage electrical grid on the baseboards.
Then he'll find a non baseboard surface to spray. You can't win.
FK
High voltage elecrical grid on the baseboards, then....
Fred Kasner
2007-04-10 20:30:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Goedjn
On Mon, 09 Apr 2007 14:35:09 -0500, Fred Kasner
Post by Fred Kasner
Post by Goedjn
Post by s***@yahoo.com.au
Ozone Generator -vs- Cat Urine Spray?
I was hoping to get some advice regarding the effectiveness of a small
Ozone Generator to deal with the smell of Cat Urine Spray indoors.....by
a de-sexed male cat. He is deliberately spraying, not simply taking a
much-needed piss. He is spraying on vertical surfaces.
There is almost nothing I don't know about the "territorial behaviour
issues", prevention, and cleaning. I have spoken to the local Vet in
great detail. I use an arsenal of special cleaners, and a Pheromone
preventative spray. I have also done a great deal of personal
research. Getting rid of the cat is definitely not an option.
Can you comment about Ozone Generators and their effectiveness? Bottom
line: If the Cat spraying is a persistent problem, is a small Ozone
Generator (with thorough cleaning) money well spent?
Thanks.
Low voltage electrical grid on the baseboards.
Then he'll find a non baseboard surface to spray. You can't win.
FK
High voltage elecrical grid on the baseboards, then....
The screams will keep you awake all night long. Until he pisses on one
and then is electrocuted to death.
FK
Just Joshin
2007-04-09 16:13:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@yahoo.com.au
Ozone Generator -vs- Cat Urine Spray?
I was hoping to get some advice regarding the effectiveness of a small
Ozone Generator to deal with the smell of Cat Urine Spray indoors.....by
a de-sexed male cat. He is deliberately spraying, not simply taking a
much-needed piss. He is spraying on vertical surfaces.
There is almost nothing I don't know about the "territorial behaviour
issues", prevention, and cleaning. I have spoken to the local Vet in
great detail. I use an arsenal of special cleaners, and a Pheromone
preventative spray. I have also done a great deal of personal
research. Getting rid of the cat is definitely not an option.
Can you comment about Ozone Generators and their effectiveness? Bottom
line: If the Cat spraying is a persistent problem, is a small Ozone
Generator (with thorough cleaning) money well spent?
Thanks.
I had a altered female spray. After talking to her vet, it was
observed she was understress. With their advice I had to tackle the
problem on many levels. Reduce her stresss, since it takes time to
clean up cat urine 100%, and clean up the spots. Her stress was
reduced, without medication, so cleaning up could be tackled. I had
to use an enzyne cleaner(simple solution). It took a while, but
without the stress and the smell of 'faded' markers, she stopped
spraying and my house was clean again.

tom @ www.Consolidated-Loans.info
HeyBub
2007-04-09 19:18:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@yahoo.com.au
Ozone Generator -vs- Cat Urine Spray?
I was hoping to get some advice regarding the effectiveness of a small
Ozone Generator to deal with the smell of Cat Urine Spray
indoors.....by a de-sexed male cat. He is deliberately spraying, not
simply taking a much-needed piss. He is spraying on vertical surfaces.
There is almost nothing I don't know about the "territorial behaviour
issues", prevention, and cleaning. I have spoken to the local Vet in
great detail. I use an arsenal of special cleaners, and a Pheromone
preventative spray. I have also done a great deal of personal
research. Getting rid of the cat is definitely not an option.
Can you comment about Ozone Generators and their effectiveness? Bottom
line: If the Cat spraying is a persistent problem, is a small Ozone
Generator (with thorough cleaning) money well spent?
Thanks.
A small Ozone generator probably won't cut it. Get a big one.
Fred Kasner
2007-04-09 19:30:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@yahoo.com.au
Ozone Generator -vs- Cat Urine Spray?
I was hoping to get some advice regarding the effectiveness of a small
Ozone Generator to deal with the smell of Cat Urine Spray indoors.....by
a de-sexed male cat. He is deliberately spraying, not simply taking a
much-needed piss. He is spraying on vertical surfaces.
There is almost nothing I don't know about the "territorial behaviour
issues", prevention, and cleaning. I have spoken to the local Vet in
great detail. I use an arsenal of special cleaners, and a Pheromone
preventative spray. I have also done a great deal of personal
research. Getting rid of the cat is definitely not an option.
Can you comment about Ozone Generators and their effectiveness? Bottom
line: If the Cat spraying is a persistent problem, is a small Ozone
Generator (with thorough cleaning) money well spent?
Thanks.
Having had several male cats it appears to me that your mistake was not
neutering the tom very early on. One of the hazards of early neutering
is problems with bladder crystals. Both my neutered males had such
problems and had to be watched carefully so as to apply the medication
lest they suffer from bladder crystals. One guy was very cooperative.
When he was having an attack he would piss in the bathtub and we could
see the blood in his urine. The other cried to indicate the pain. Sprays
that would drive him from spraying a vertical surface will merely force
him to find a different vertical surface to spray. Good luck, I go with
dogs now. The interem period had an all white demon kitty and a short
hair St. Bernard (the original version of the beast before they were
crossed with Newfoundlands to increase size.)

FK
HeyBub
2007-04-09 21:38:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Fred Kasner
Having had several male cats it appears to me that your mistake was
not neutering the tom very early on. One of the hazards of early
neutering is problems with bladder crystals. Both my neutered males
had such problems and had to be watched carefully so as to apply the
medication lest they suffer from bladder crystals. One guy was very
cooperative. When he was having an attack he would piss in the
bathtub and we could see the blood in his urine. The other cried to
indicate the pain. Sprays that would drive him from spraying a
vertical surface will merely force him to find a different vertical
surface to spray.
Crystals are caused by cheap food, high in Magnesium content.

Cats are carnivores and cannot digest plant material. Any food that does not
list a meat as its first, chief ingredient (rice, corn, etc.), should be
avoided. You can't go wrong with a national brand known for quality (Purina,
Iams, Science Diet) but you can kill your kitty with store brands.
mm
2007-04-09 23:28:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by HeyBub
Cats are carnivores and cannot digest plant material. Any food that does not
list a meat as its first, chief ingredient (rice, corn, etc.), should be
avoided. You can't go wrong with a national brand known for quality (Purina,
Iams, Science Diet)
Most months.
Post by HeyBub
but you can kill your kitty with store brands.
Fred Kasner
2007-04-10 20:32:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by HeyBub
Post by Fred Kasner
Having had several male cats it appears to me that your mistake was
not neutering the tom very early on. One of the hazards of early
neutering is problems with bladder crystals. Both my neutered males
had such problems and had to be watched carefully so as to apply the
medication lest they suffer from bladder crystals. One guy was very
cooperative. When he was having an attack he would piss in the
bathtub and we could see the blood in his urine. The other cried to
indicate the pain. Sprays that would drive him from spraying a
vertical surface will merely force him to find a different vertical
surface to spray.
Crystals are caused by cheap food, high in Magnesium content.
Cats are carnivores and cannot digest plant material. Any food that does not
list a meat as its first, chief ingredient (rice, corn, etc.), should be
avoided. You can't go wrong with a national brand known for quality (Purina,
Iams, Science Diet) but you can kill your kitty with store brands.
They were fed with ground horsemeat and some added table scraps. So much
for your purported expertise.
FK
hebintn
2007-04-10 13:18:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@yahoo.com.au
Ozone Generator -vs- Cat Urine Spray?
I was hoping to get some advice regarding the effectiveness of a small
Ozone Generator to [snip]
Ozone (O3) is in the news a lot these days and has its place in the
world of chemistry, but as a consumer product has pretty much been a
failure. O3 is a very reactive material and can combine with many
chemicals very rapidly. In your case it MIGHT react with the stink in
kittys pee. The problem is that most of the 03 is used up before it
ever gets to the stinky chemicals. In order to be effective you would
have to use high concentrations of O3 which could damage you or the
surfaces you are trying to deodorize or rarely cause health
problems.

There are a couple of approaches I would take - both "natural" or
biological. (O3 is "natural" but not at high concentrations.) First,
there are products available, through vets I imagine, that contain
enzymes that act naturally to degrade the urine and the odors that are
there. Second, there are commercial cleaners that are used in public
bathrooms that contain bacteria that eat urine and odors that come
from urine. These bacteria are common harmless ones that are found in
the environment. Both these approaches are sold by Novazyme
Biologicals, and I suspect many others.

Sorry but I don't buy all the psychological approaches - but I'm a
chemist not a pet psychologist. Try both, what do you have to lose
but some stink.

I have 2 cats and 4 dogs. I swore if any of them developed bad habits
such as you're dealing with that they would have to spend pee-time
outside. We now have one inside cat and one outside cat, and it works
well for all concerned. The outside guy keeps the mouse population in
check and has a warm place to sleep and food to eat and goes to the
vet when he needs it.

If you end up with a positive solution with O3 please let the group
know. I'd like to file it away for future reference.

Good luck.

Harry
dlzc
2007-04-10 14:56:38 UTC
Permalink
Dear hebintn:

On Apr 10, 6:18 am, "hebintn" <***@bellsouth.net> wrote:
...
Post by hebintn
If you end up with a positive solution with O3 please
let the group know. I'd like to file it away for future
reference.
Ozone is mixed with water and sprayed on surfaces for
decontamination. As long as undissolved ozone-containing gas does not
exit the spray nozzle, and the dissolved ozone level is not too high
(5 ppm or so), and the "area of application" is well ventillated,
industry has had excellent results in surface decontamination.

None of this success will apply to an "electric room deodorizer".

David A. Smith
Paul
2007-04-10 16:28:35 UTC
Permalink
Try the John Wayne Bobbitt solution - amazing what doctors can do!
hebintn
2007-04-10 17:26:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by dlzc
...
Post by hebintn
If you end up with a positive solution with O3 please
let the group know. I'd like to file it away for future
reference.
Ozone is mixed with water and sprayed on surfaces for
decontamination. As long as undissolved ozone-containing gas does not
exit the spray nozzle, and the dissolved ozone level is not too high
(5 ppm or so), and the "area of application" is well ventillated,
industry has had excellent results in surface decontamination.
None of this success will apply to an "electric room deodorizer".
David A. Smith
Dave,

O3 at this low concentration, 5 ppm, would be probably be totally
reacted with non-target molecules such as soil molecules, fabric
surfaces, or most any unsaturated molecule. Are you talking
deodorization or disinfection? Doesn't matter O3 sucks at
concentrations usable on soiled surfaces for the consuming public
regardless of the hype you see on TV. Show me some data of O3
efficacy in real world surfaces.

Sounds like you've been around O3 projects. 8 ) Are you the Dave
Smith I know that works for a large consumer product company?

Harry
dlzc
2007-04-10 20:41:56 UTC
Permalink
...
Post by hebintn
Post by dlzc
Ozone is mixed with water and sprayed on surfaces for
decontamination. As long as undissolved ozone-containing
gas does not exit the spray nozzle, and the dissolved
ozone level is not too high (5 ppm or so), and the "area of
application" is well ventillated, industry has had excellent
results in surface decontamination.
None of this success will apply to an "electric room deodorizer".
Dave,
O3 at this low concentration, 5 ppm, would be probably be totally
reacted with non-target molecules such as soil molecules, fabric
surfaces, or most any unsaturated molecule. Are you talking
deodorization or disinfection?
Mox nix. Lysing the little fat pockets that cells breathe through
takes very little longer than getting double carbon bonds.
Post by hebintn
Doesn't matter O3 sucks at
concentrations usable on soiled surfaces for the consuming public
regardless of the hype you see on TV. Show me some data of O3
efficacy in real world surfaces.
Carpet would suck, and would no longer be recognizeable as carpet
after treatment.
Post by hebintn
Sounds like you've been around O3 projects. 8 )
I had a Co-60 gamma sterilizer in El Paso, so I made ozone in air with
a blue glow. Then I worked for an ozone manufacturer making ozone in
air or oxygen with a purple to blue glow. Then I worked for a gas-to-
liquid contacting company, and ozone came up a lot there also.
Post by hebintn
Are you the Dave
Smith I know that works for a large consumer product company?
I "designed" (physics, my assistant, and my boss helped much) the cell
in this ozone generator, and had much to do with the internal layout:
http://www.gewater.com/pdf/cfe1003en.pdf

So probably not me.

But nice to make your aquaintance.

David A. Smith
Gregg
2007-04-11 01:20:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by dlzc
...
Post by hebintn
Post by dlzc
Ozone is mixed with water and sprayed on surfaces for
decontamination. As long as undissolved ozone-containing
gas does not exit the spray nozzle, and the dissolved
ozone level is not too high (5 ppm or so), and the "area of
application" is well ventillated, industry has had excellent
results in surface decontamination.
None of this success will apply to an "electric room deodorizer".
Dave,
O3 at this low concentration, 5 ppm, would be probably be totally
reacted with non-target molecules such as soil molecules, fabric
surfaces, or most any unsaturated molecule. Are you talking
deodorization or disinfection?
Mox nix. Lysing the little fat pockets that cells breathe through
takes very little longer than getting double carbon bonds.
Post by hebintn
Doesn't matter O3 sucks at
concentrations usable on soiled surfaces for the consuming public
regardless of the hype you see on TV. Show me some data of O3
efficacy in real world surfaces.
Carpet would suck, and would no longer be recognizeable as carpet
after treatment.
Post by hebintn
Sounds like you've been around O3 projects. 8 )
I had a Co-60 gamma sterilizer in El Paso, so I made ozone in air with
a blue glow. Then I worked for an ozone manufacturer making ozone in
air or oxygen with a purple to blue glow. Then I worked for a gas-to-
liquid contacting company, and ozone came up a lot there also.
Post by hebintn
Are you the Dave
Smith I know that works for a large consumer product company?
I "designed" (physics, my assistant, and my boss helped much) the cell
http://www.gewater.com/pdf/cfe1003en.pdf
So probably not me.
But nice to make your aquaintance.
David A. Smith
Hi Dave,
I have a friend who has designed some very high efficiency bubble
diffusers (originally designed for O2 transfer).
Since the diffusers are ceramic and can be easily fitted with ozone
resistant fittings, I was wondering if you thought there would be a good
market for bubble diffusers as a replacement for injectors. (>90% O2
transfer efficiency in 8' of water IIRC)
They have an incredible turn down ratio. ( I can't remember the exact
operating pressure ~20" water IIRC)
When I worked on the diffusers, I noticed there was a lot of reluctance
to try an unproven technology esp in water treatment.
Some were sold for special applications and proved very effective.
I know he has some ideas for improving transfer efficiency even further
- but could this be a solution to a problem nobody wants to solve?

Thanks in advance for any input,
Gregg
N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)
2007-04-11 02:28:29 UTC
Permalink
Dear Gregg:

"Gregg" <***@frontiernet.net> wrote in message news:8JWSh.6563$***@news02.roc.ny...
...
Post by Gregg
Hi Dave,
I have a friend who has designed some very high
efficiency bubble diffusers (originally designed for
O2 transfer). Since the diffusers are ceramic
I've seen and used porous teflon membranes too...
Post by Gregg
and can be easily fitted with ozone resistant fittings,
I was wondering if you thought there would be a good market for
bubble diffusers as a replacement for
injectors. (>90% O2 transfer efficiency in 8' of water
IIRC) They have an incredible turn down ratio. ( I
can't remember the exact operating pressure ~20"
water IIRC) When I worked on the diffusers, I
noticed there was a lot of reluctance to try an
unproven technology esp in water treatment.
Diffusers have been used in municipal water treatment since the
early 1900s.

Turndown ratios for diffusers are on the order of 50%, which is
fine for some applications. If the growing bubble is filled too
slowly, it doesn't distribute over the whole surface... just on
the "high spots".
Post by Gregg
Some were sold for special applications and proved
very effective. I know he has some ideas for
improving transfer efficiency even further - but could
this be a solution to a problem nobody wants to solve?
Thanks in advance for any input,
There is a great lot of competition in diffusers. If you can do
it without polymeric seals of any sort, you will have a leg up on
the competition.

I personally *hate* diffuser systems. The diffusers are
constantly requiring service, since ozone will cause iron (among
other things) to go insoluble right on the diffuser. This
requires a full shutdown of the process to remove / replace /
refurbish. Then you have to build huge tanks for contacting.
And you have to make sure the manifold is level and
self-draining. And you require high flow rates, or multi-tier
delivery manifolds for large gas turn-down ratios. Finally, with
large exposed volumes you get very high dissolved oxygen levels,
which pose serious corrosion problems in municipal systems.

I'll put my salesman's hat on for a second, even though the
company I used to work for doesn't work out of Arridzona any
more. Injector systems reside outside the contacting area,
allowing service on components without draining (or wearing a
wetsuit). Injector systems can be arranged to deliver ozone in
just a few tens of feet of pipe... even for huge flow rates, and
mixed to get (in most cases) better then 95% mass transfer.
Injector systems can even be made to keep DO levels close to
ambient saturation, so that you don't end up with air binding in
filtration systems downstream.

Salesman's hat comes off...

I added 100 ppd of ozone at 12 wt% to a 350 gpm semiconductor
wastewater flow stream, got about 99% mass transfer (very high
instantaneous demand), and only took about 60 sq feet of floor
space including contacting and destruction of excess gas.

Diffusers don't require additional power to contact. But that
really is their only benefit. Sorry.

David A. Smith
Gregg
2007-04-11 10:10:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)
...
Post by Gregg
Hi Dave,
I have a friend who has designed some very high
efficiency bubble diffusers (originally designed for
O2 transfer). Since the diffusers are ceramic
I've seen and used porous teflon membranes too...
Post by Gregg
and can be easily fitted with ozone resistant fittings,
I was wondering if you thought there would be a good market for
bubble diffusers as a replacement for
injectors. (>90% O2 transfer efficiency in 8' of water
IIRC) They have an incredible turn down ratio. ( I
can't remember the exact operating pressure ~20"
water IIRC) When I worked on the diffusers, I
noticed there was a lot of reluctance to try an
unproven technology esp in water treatment.
Diffusers have been used in municipal water treatment since the
early 1900s.
Turndown ratios for diffusers are on the order of 50%, which is
fine for some applications. If the growing bubble is filled too
slowly, it doesn't distribute over the whole surface... just on
the "high spots".
Post by Gregg
Some were sold for special applications and proved
very effective. I know he has some ideas for
improving transfer efficiency even further - but could
this be a solution to a problem nobody wants to solve?
Thanks in advance for any input,
There is a great lot of competition in diffusers. If you can do
it without polymeric seals of any sort, you will have a leg up on
the competition.
I personally *hate* diffuser systems. The diffusers are
constantly requiring service, since ozone will cause iron (among
other things) to go insoluble right on the diffuser. This
requires a full shutdown of the process to remove / replace /
refurbish. Then you have to build huge tanks for contacting.
And you have to make sure the manifold is level and
self-draining. And you require high flow rates, or multi-tier
delivery manifolds for large gas turn-down ratios. Finally, with
large exposed volumes you get very high dissolved oxygen levels,
which pose serious corrosion problems in municipal systems.
I'll put my salesman's hat on for a second, even though the
company I used to work for doesn't work out of Arridzona any
more. Injector systems reside outside the contacting area,
allowing service on components without draining (or wearing a
wetsuit). Injector systems can be arranged to deliver ozone in
just a few tens of feet of pipe... even for huge flow rates, and
mixed to get (in most cases) better then 95% mass transfer.
Injector systems can even be made to keep DO levels close to
ambient saturation, so that you don't end up with air binding in
filtration systems downstream.
Salesman's hat comes off...
I added 100 ppd of ozone at 12 wt% to a 350 gpm semiconductor
wastewater flow stream, got about 99% mass transfer (very high
instantaneous demand), and only took about 60 sq feet of floor
space including contacting and destruction of excess gas.
Diffusers don't require additional power to contact. But that
really is their only benefit. Sorry.
David A. Smith
Thanks for your input Dave.
It's good to hear from the other side!
- Don't be sorry! It's good to here solid advice before throwing money &
time down the drain.
I'd like to provide a few more details about the diffuser (We made
standard ceramic disc, dome & Sanitare type diffusers for municipal
waste water systems - they have fairly low transfer efficiencies as do
teflon membranes ( per internal O2 transfer testing in 30' water column)
This is a ceramic membrane diffuser system -fine ceramic membrane coated
on a large pore ceramic body which acts as a plenum. A 3/4"or 1" NPT SS
fitting is used - screws right in - the diffusers are balanced for DWP
- that is - they can be manufactured to very tight tolerances unlike
standard diffusers. The end result is- you don't wind up with dead or
low flow diffusers in the grid. (If it's plumbed correctly!!) even
though they have a very flat Flow vs P curve. These membranes are also
designed to prevent clogging (A long explanation is required)
I talked with him last night - the diffuser can get 100% transfer in
short column depths << 8ft so no ozone destruction is needed.
Having said all that - There is still a hell of a lot of expensive
plumbing required and maintenance would be a pain.
He's not looking at selling systems - just diffusers...
With the additional info - do you think there is any benefit?


Gregg
N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)
2007-04-11 13:16:28 UTC
Permalink
Dear Gregg:

"Gregg" <***@frontiernet.net> wrote in message news:yu2Th.6574$***@news02.roc.ny...
...
Post by Gregg
Thanks for your input Dave.
It's good to hear from the other side!
- Don't be sorry! It's good to here solid advice before
throwing money & time down the drain.
I'd like to provide a few more details about the diffuser
(We made standard ceramic disc, dome & Sanitare
type diffusers for municipal waste water systems -
they have fairly low transfer efficiencies as do teflon
membranes ( per internal O2 transfer testing in 30'
water column)
Yes, you cannot improve oxygen transfer in wastewater, and if you
do succeed you get no return. There is just too much crap in the
water to get more oxygen in.
Post by Gregg
This is a ceramic membrane diffuser system -fine
ceramic membrane coated on a large pore ceramic
body which acts as a plenum. A 3/4"or 1" NPT SS fitting is
used - screws right in -
How is the SS bonded to the ceramic? Aquatic Ecosystems sells a
*very* inexpensive diffuser stone that lasts about a year then
unbonds, blows off, and sinks to the bottom of the contact basin.
Post by Gregg
the diffusers are balanced for DWP - that is - they
can be manufactured to very tight tolerances unlike standard
diffusers.
Tell this to Refractron.
Post by Gregg
The end result is- you don't wind up with dead or low flow
diffusers in the grid.
You do if you reduce gas flow to 20%, as is being done now in all
large municipal applications.
Post by Gregg
(If it's plumbed correctly!!) even though they have a
very flat Flow vs P curve. These membranes are also designed to
prevent clogging (A long explanation is
required)
You cannot change chemistry. Unless you have a polymeric surface
that fractures accumulation, you will still have pores getting
blocked.
Post by Gregg
I talked with him last night - the diffuser can get
100% transfer in short column depths << 8ft so no
ozone destruction is needed.
Pure horse manure. His dissolved oxygen level must be so low
that *no* bubbles break the surface, otherwise Henry's law gets
thrown out. I don't think a diffuser can change the laws of
physics at the surface.

Someone just sold you a "low mileage" used car, sir. Pay no
attention to the racing car numbers still faintly visible under
the spray-can paint job.
Post by Gregg
Having said all that - There is still a hell of a lot
of expensive plumbing required and maintenance
would be a pain. He's not looking at selling
systems - just diffusers... With the additional info -
do you think there is any benefit?
In small systems, sure. Big enough for your "friend" to make a
living at (or not get sued doing), probably not.

David A. Smith
Gregg
2007-04-12 01:00:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)
...
Post by Gregg
Thanks for your input Dave.
It's good to hear from the other side!
- Don't be sorry! It's good to here solid advice before
throwing money & time down the drain.
I'd like to provide a few more details about the diffuser
(We made standard ceramic disc, dome & Sanitare
type diffusers for municipal waste water systems -
they have fairly low transfer efficiencies as do teflon
membranes ( per internal O2 transfer testing in 30'
water column)
Yes, you cannot improve oxygen transfer in wastewater, and if you
do succeed you get no return. There is just too much crap in the
water to get more oxygen in.
Post by Gregg
This is a ceramic membrane diffuser system -fine
ceramic membrane coated on a large pore ceramic
body which acts as a plenum. A 3/4"or 1" NPT SS fitting is
used - screws right in -
How is the SS bonded to the ceramic? Aquatic Ecosystems sells a
*very* inexpensive diffuser stone that lasts about a year then
unbonds, blows off, and sinks to the bottom of the contact basin.
Post by Gregg
the diffusers are balanced for DWP - that is - they
can be manufactured to very tight tolerances unlike standard
diffusers.
Tell this to Refractron.
Post by Gregg
The end result is- you don't wind up with dead or low flow
diffusers in the grid.
You do if you reduce gas flow to 20%, as is being done now in all
large municipal applications.
Post by Gregg
(If it's plumbed correctly!!) even though they have a
very flat Flow vs P curve. These membranes are also designed to
prevent clogging (A long explanation is
required)
You cannot change chemistry. Unless you have a polymeric surface
that fractures accumulation, you will still have pores getting
blocked.
Post by Gregg
I talked with him last night - the diffuser can get
100% transfer in short column depths << 8ft so no
ozone destruction is needed.
Pure horse manure. His dissolved oxygen level must be so low
that *no* bubbles break the surface, otherwise Henry's law gets
thrown out. I don't think a diffuser can change the laws of
physics at the surface.
Someone just sold you a "low mileage" used car, sir. Pay no
attention to the racing car numbers still faintly visible under
the spray-can paint job.
Post by Gregg
Having said all that - There is still a hell of a lot
of expensive plumbing required and maintenance
would be a pain. He's not looking at selling
systems - just diffusers... With the additional info -
do you think there is any benefit?
In small systems, sure. Big enough for your "friend" to make a
living at (or not get sued doing), probably not.
Thanks for the input Dave...
It would only be a minor addition to his product lines. (more of an area
of personal interest - water treatment.)
As far as getting sued - He wouldn't violate valid patents. (or invalid
ones with out a right to practice opinion)
He has a very solid background in diffuser technology ... .and some
interesting results and stories.
I'm pretty sure I don't have all the details right ;-). - I shouldn't
relay second hand information, but It sounded like an area of interest
for both you and my friend.
If you're interested - I can give you contact information - it sounds
like you two might have a pretty interesting discussion.
(he loves technical banter)

Gregg
Post by N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)
David A. Smith
N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)
2007-04-12 02:40:11 UTC
Permalink
Dear Gregg:

"Gregg" <***@frontiernet.net> wrote in message news:OwfTh.6612$***@news02.roc.ny...
...
Post by Gregg
Thanks for the input Dave...
It would only be a minor addition to his product lines.
(more of an area of personal interest - water treatment.)
As far as getting sued - He wouldn't violate valid
patents. (or invalid ones with out a right to practice
opinion)
It was not "patent" or "opinion" that would get him sued, IMO.
It was violation of physical law, and wild claims. Customers are
getting wise.
Post by Gregg
He has a very solid background in diffuser technology ...
.and some interesting results and stories. I'm pretty
sure I don't have all the details right ;-). - I shouldn't
relay second hand information, but It sounded like an
area of interest for both you and my friend. If you're
interested - I can give you contact information - it sounds
like you two might have a pretty interesting discussion.
(he loves technical banter)
That's OK. I am not in the busniess of specifying diffuser
systems. But thank you.

David A. Smith
M***@Yahoo.com
2007-04-16 12:05:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)
...
Post by Gregg
Thanks for your input Dave.
It's good to hear from the other side!
- Don't be sorry! It's good to here solid advice before
throwing money & time down the drain.
I'd like to provide a few more details about the diffuser
(We made standard ceramic disc, dome & Sanitare
type diffusers for municipal waste water systems -
they have fairly low transfer efficiencies as do teflon
membranes ( per internal O2 transfer testing in 30'
water column)
Yes, you cannot improve oxygen transfer in wastewater, and if you
do succeed you get no return. There is just too much crap in the
water to get more oxygen in.
Post by Gregg
This is a ceramic membrane diffuser system -fine
ceramic membrane coated on a large pore ceramic
body which acts as a plenum. A 3/4"or 1" NPT SS fitting is
used - screws right in -
How is the SS bonded to the ceramic? Aquatic Ecosystems sells a
*very* inexpensive diffuser stone that lasts about a year then
unbonds, blows off, and sinks to the bottom of the contact basin.
Post by Gregg
the diffusers are balanced for DWP - that is - they
can be manufactured to very tight tolerances unlike standard
diffusers.
Tell this to Refractron.
Post by Gregg
The end result is- you don't wind up with dead or low flow
diffusers in the grid.
You do if you reduce gas flow to 20%, as is being done now in all
large municipal applications.
Post by Gregg
(If it's plumbed correctly!!) even though they have a
very flat Flow vs P curve. These membranes are also designed to
prevent clogging (A long explanation is
required)
You cannot change chemistry. Unless you have a polymeric surface
that fractures accumulation, you will still have pores getting
blocked.
Post by Gregg
I talked with him last night - the diffuser can get
100% transfer in short column depths << 8ft so no
ozone destruction is needed.
Pure horse manure. His dissolved oxygen level must be so low
that *no* bubbles break the surface, otherwise Henry's law gets
thrown out. I don't think a diffuser can change the laws of
physics at the surface.
Someone just sold you a "low mileage" used car, sir. Pay no
attention to the racing car numbers still faintly visible under
the spray-can paint job.
Post by Gregg
Having said all that - There is still a hell of a lot
of expensive plumbing required and maintenance
would be a pain. He's not looking at selling
systems - just diffusers... With the additional info -
do you think there is any benefit?
In small systems, sure. Big enough for your "friend" to make a
living at (or not get sued doing), probably not.
David A. Smith
O3 is a lung irritant. Every Gov regulating agency has ppm per hour
limits for exposure for o3. Ozone Generators easily surpass the max
saftey limits. Read up on o3 before you leap. Start with the EPA and
Google Ozones harmfull effects - o3 exposure limits. True Generators
can easily overexpose a room with ozone.High o3 fries lungs
permanently..
Bill Penrose
2007-04-11 16:52:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@yahoo.com.au
Ozone Generator -vs- Cat Urine Spray?
I was hoping to get some advice regarding the effectiveness of a small
Ozone Generator to deal with the smell of Cat Urine Spray indoors.....
I was involved in some experiments years ago with removing the odor of
cigarettes from 'no smoking' rooms in hotels. Seems that maintaining
10 ppm ozone for a few hours got rid of most odors without a lot of
damage to fabrics and so on. I think it may not have succeeded
because, well, 10 ppm is a LOT of ozone, dangerous in even short
exposures, and the people that will work for hotel wages are just not
well enough trained to work with something that nasty.

The low levels of ozone made by the home ozone industry likely won't
help much with the odor, but they will, over time, damage materials
and possibly cause an asthma-like irritation.

The ozone machine has to have a reflexive control on it to maintain
ozone levels at 10 ppm too, which ups the cost a lot. We worked for
some time on a sensor for that, but most companies investigating the
deodorizing application gave up on it, as far as I know, and went into
water sterilizing instead. Liability concerns may have had something
to do with it.

Dangerous Bill
t***@aol.com
2007-04-12 14:15:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Penrose
I was involved in some experiments years ago with removing the odor of
cigarettes from 'no smoking' rooms in hotels. Seems that maintaining
10 ppm ozone for a few hours got rid of most odors without a lot of
damage to fabrics and so on. > Dangerous Bill
I have been told that ozone generators work by desensitizing your
nose, rather than actually reacting with the odor source.

I have not been able to find the source for that statement though it
seems reasonable.
Bill Penrose
2007-04-12 17:16:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by t***@aol.com
Post by Bill Penrose
I was involved in some experiments years ago with removing the odor of
cigarettes from 'no smoking' rooms in hotels. Seems that maintaining
10 ppm ozone for a few hours got rid of most odors without a lot of
damage to fabrics and so on. > Dangerous Bill
I have been told that ozone generators work by desensitizing your
nose, rather than actually reacting with the odor source.
Both are true. When I worked around ozone without enough ventilation,
I could detect it only by the itching in my throat and a dry sensation
at the back of my nose. This effect started at 50 ppb and increased
with concentration.

I can tell you that a surprise blast of 30% ozone in the face is no
fun at all, and it was a week or more before my throat and nose
completely recovered. Luckily I didn't inhale.

But it readily destroys some organic compounds, or and renders others
sufficiently polar that they are no longer volatile. It's so reactive
that you can actually measure a concentration gradient between the
center of a room and positions adjacent to the walls.

I know that it works well on residual cigarette stink, and not very
well on dead animal stench. Other odors may vary.

Dangerous Bill
N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)
2007-04-13 01:56:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by t***@aol.com
Post by Bill Penrose
I was involved in some experiments years ago with
removing the odor of cigarettes from 'no smoking'
rooms in hotels. Seems that maintaining 10 ppm
ozone for a few hours got rid of most odors without
a lot of damage to fabrics and so on.
I have been told that ozone generators work by
desensitizing your nose, rather than actually
reacting with the odor source.
I have not been able to find the source for that
statement though it seems reasonable.
Saying that a microwave cooks from the inside out sounds
reasonable, too. It still is not true.

Yes ozone will desensitize your nose... to the smell of ozone.
Enough of it will have other physiological effects as well.

Ozone will not *quite* pass from point of generation to either
double carbon bonds or less-than fully oxided sulfur without
passing through points in between. But it will come very close
to that.

David A. Smith
t***@aol.com
2007-04-13 05:50:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)
Saying that a microwave cooks from the inside out sounds
reasonable, too. It still is not true.
Yes ozone will desensitize your nose... to the smell of ozone.
Enough of it will have other physiological effects as well.
Ozone will not *quite* pass from point of generation to either
double carbon bonds or less-than fully oxided sulfur without
passing through points in between. But it will come very close
to that.
David A. Smith
And yet I've seen it be quite effective on a mildew smell in a space
large enough there is no chance it was really removing the odorant.

So I have to believe the desensitization is a bit more general than
you think.
N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)
2007-04-13 13:11:01 UTC
Permalink
On Apr 13, 3:56 am, "N:dlzc D:aol T:com \(dlzc\)"
Post by N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)
Saying that a microwave cooks from the inside out
sounds reasonable, too. It still is not true.
Yes ozone will desensitize your nose... to the smell
of ozone. Enough of it will have other physiological
effects as well.
Ozone will not *quite* pass from point of generation
to either double carbon bonds or less-than fully
oxided sulfur without passing through points in
between. But it will come very close to that.
And yet I've seen it be quite effective on a mildew
smell in a space large enough there is no chance
it was really removing the odorant.
So I have to believe the desensitization is a bit
more general than you think.
You claim it had "no chance" of removing the odorant. You can
still smell mildew odors to this day. Ozone's "swamping" or
desensitization of the sense of smell (or only certain receptors)
is short lived. If the mildew odor is not present the next day,
it is because ozone did its job, found / oxidized those double
carbon bonds, and decayed fully back to oxygen.

So I have to believe you have not thought this all through. I
have breathed 10+wt% ozone on a couple of occasions. I can still
smell ozone, and a lot of other things.

Ozone is not a magic bullet. Even for your sense of smell.

David A. Smith
t***@aol.com
2007-04-13 14:34:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)
So I have to believe you have not thought this all through. I
have breathed 10+wt% ozone on a couple of occasions. I can still
smell ozone, and a lot of other things.
David A. Smith- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
I'm sure I have not thought it through in the depth it deserves, nor
done any calculations, but I would suggest it is obvious you have not
done so either.

1. I did not say ozone permanently destroys your sense of smell, as
you are falsely attributing to me. I believe it desensitizes it
sufficiently to cover odors when the generator is running and for a
short time afterwards. If the smell disappeared permanently, I would
agree the ozone had been working on the odorant materials. In the
case of mildew in a large water damaged warehouse, without any forced
air circulation, I think the effect was on the employee's nose, not on
the spores.

2. You claimed that ozone could only desensitize the nose to ozone
(and imply that this is a permanent condition.) My mildew example was
one where I believe the desensitization was to something other than
odor. Ben's cigaret smoke example was one where he believes the
desensitization was to something other than ozone. If you have some
evidence for your claim now would be a good time to cite it.
dlzc
2007-04-13 18:49:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by t***@aol.com
Post by N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)
So I have to believe you have not thought this all
through. I have breathed 10+wt% ozone on a
couple of occasions. I can still smell ozone, and
a lot of other things.
I'm sure I have not thought it through in the depth it
deserves,
Actually you probably have. Because we are straining at gnats here.
Post by t***@aol.com
nor done any calculations, but I would suggest it is
obvious you have not done so either.
1. I did not say ozone permanently destroys your
sense of smell, as you are falsely attributing to me.
I believe it desensitizes it sufficiently to cover odors
when the generator is running and for a short time
afterwards. If the smell disappeared permanently, I
would agree the ozone had been working on the
odorant materials. In the case of mildew in a large
water damaged warehouse, without any forced air
circulation, I think the effect was on the employee's
nose, not on the spores.
And yet I've seen it be quite effective on a mildew smell
in a space large enough there is no chance it was really
removing the odorant.
Your express claim is that, not in your opinion, ozone could not
remove the mildew smell. "No chance" you said. In your example, to
which only you have the "rest of the story" you did not say that the
smell came back. Ozone is used in mildew remediation. You can
eliminate the smell with very little ozone, and as long as the stuff
never gets wet again, the *smell* never comes back. Even if the
mildew spores and dead "skeletons" might still be present.
Post by t***@aol.com
2. You claimed that ozone could only desensitize the
nose to ozone (and imply that this is a permanent
condition.)
I made no such claim. I could smell sweat on stainless steel, when I
could no longer smell ozone. Your post implied that, again with the
"rest of the story missing", they did not smell anything of mildew
ever again:

Your statement of opinion.
Post by t***@aol.com
So I have to believe the desensitization is a bit more
general than you think.
"General" seems to read as "permanent" in your "two paragraph"
response.
Post by t***@aol.com
My mildew example was one where I believe the
desensitization was to something other than odor.
Ben's cigaret smoke example was one where he believes
the desensitization was to something other than ozone.
If you have some evidence for your claim now would be a
good time to cite it.
There are a host of companies that "decontaminate" used cars, using
ozone to counter, among other things, smoke odors... using only ozone.

There are a host of companies the remediate water / smoke damaged
buildings / structures, and where they don't strip it down to studs,
they use ozone to permanently destroy the odor (if not "sterilize"
it).

Insurance companies accept charges from these companies, and do not
accept them as permanently damaging their client's sense of smell.

Now I apologize if I have put words in your mouth, that you did not
mean to say what I "heard". Unless we are going to talk past one
another yet again, the last words can be yours.

David A. Smith
t***@aol.com
2007-04-16 10:41:15 UTC
Permalink
On Apr 13, 8:49 pm, "dlzc" <***@cox.net> wrote:
Unless we are going to talk past one
Post by dlzc
another yet again, the last words can be yours.
David A. Smith
While getting the last word can be pleasant, data might be more useful
in resolving the disagreement.

I am skeptical about the effectiveness of ozone on directly reducing
odor because of the difficulty controlling concentration and contact
time. The people who try to sell me boiler chemicals, swimming pool
treatments, drinking water treatments, etc., know what concentrations
they want AND how to measure what they are getting. The people who
try to sell me magnetic water treatment and ozone odorant control
usually know neither. Often they can't even tell you units for flow.

You are skeptical about the effectiveness of ozone on reducing smell
sensitivity, I don't really know why.

The data I think would be useful would be the concentrations known to
have an effect on the nose, and the concentrations known to have an
effect on aerosol odorous compounds. I don't know where to look for
that data, I'm assigned to Europe with no access to English language
libraries.
N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)
2007-04-16 13:22:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by dlzc
Unless we are going to talk past one
Post by dlzc
another yet again, the last words can be yours.
While getting the last word can be pleasant, data
might be more useful in resolving the disagreement.
I am skeptical about the effectiveness of ozone on
directly reducing odor because of the difficulty
controlling concentration and contact time. The
people who try to sell me boiler chemicals,
swimming pool treatments, drinking water
treatments, etc., know what concentrations they
want AND how to measure what they are getting.
The people who try to sell me magnetic water
treatment and ozone odorant control usually know
neither. Often they can't even tell you units for flow.
And I have found chemical salesmen that had the some problems you
describe for ozone salesmen. None of them are in business for
long.
Post by dlzc
You are skeptical about the effectiveness of ozone
on reducing smell sensitivity, I don't really know why.
Ozone has a half-life in air of minutes to hours, depending on
humidity and temperature. An ozone treatment now, is gone
tomorrow. The olfactory sense can be swamped for a while. But
if you are ever capable of smelling mold in a different building,
and smell none in a building recently treated, that is because
there is none present.
Post by dlzc
The data I think would be useful would be the
concentrations known to have an effect on the nose,
The effect is temporary, not permanent. The presence of ozone in
air is temporary, not permanent.
Post by dlzc
and the concentrations known to have an effect on
aerosol odorous compounds. I don't know where to
look for that data, I'm assigned to Europe with no
access to English language libraries.
On days where ozone levels are high enough to cause the
government to issue a warning, people can still taste food. So
the "threshold" is higher than this.

The concentrations of ozone known to have an effect on odorous
compounds is not quite zero... it is the mass produced / reacted,
not the instantaneous distribution of said mass... just like with
any other first-order rate reaction. You can feed a chemical
slowly over a day, or feed it in doses once-a-day, the mass
injected is mass reacted (unless it is a cooling tower of
course... then some of it is blown down).

David A. Smith
Rusty Oxhide
2007-04-24 22:39:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@yahoo.com.au
is a small Ozone Generator (with thorough
cleaning) money well spent? Thanks.
An ozone generator is not that difficult to make. Generators use a
source of high voltage, two electrode~dielectrics of large surface areas
and a supply of dry atmosphere bearing the O2 to be made into 03
(ozone).

Indoor growers of clandestine marijuana gardens have used ozone
generators to remove the tell-tale odors of their illicit activities.
I found, in a search engine, these two items of simplified instruction
written for (and by) weak minds doped on ganja:

http://www.a1b2c3.com/drugs/mj011.htm
http://www.seedbankupdate.com/ozone.html

The following references for the instructions on building ozone
generators are from a textbook written by Louis F. Fieser, Sheldon Emery
Professor of Organic Chemistry, Harvard University =A91941:

L.I. Smith, Journal of the American Chemical Society (JACS) Vol 47, 1844
(1925); L.I. Smith and Ullyot, ibid., Vol. 55, 4327 (1933); see also
Gross and Philips, J. Assoc. Official Agr. Chem., Vol. 21, 326 (1938).

Church, Whitmore and Mcgraw, JACS, Vol. 56, 176 (1934).

I have seen surplus neon sign high voltage transformer for about ten
dollars at www.allelectronics.com but do not know if they are sold out.

Anyone building an ozone generator should first understand the
principles of high voltage and safe procedure. Online sources for
information on safe handling of high voltage electricity are abundant
and provided by hobby HV experimenters and educators. Use search engine
terms: high voltage, tesla coil, flyback transformer, ion generator,
plasma bulb, Van de Graff, electrostatic.

Safety tips are interesting. For example, present day HV experimenters
still use the old "One Hand in the Pocket" technique when handling high
voltage. It is noteworthy to know that wood, ordinarily an insulator is
a good conductor of high voltage. Fire will conduct high voltage, etc.

Rusty Oxhide
N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)
2007-04-25 04:59:00 UTC
Permalink
Dear Rusty Oxhide:

"Rusty Oxhide" <***@webtv.net> wrote in message news:26148-462E8737-***@storefull-3258.bay.webtv.net...
...
Post by Rusty Oxhide
It is noteworthy to know that wood, ordinarily an
insulator is a good conductor of high voltage. Fire
will conduct high voltage, etc.
Is burning wood a superconductor for high voltage? ;>)

David A. Smith
Rusty Oxhide
2007-04-25 20:09:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)
Is burning wood a superconductor for high
voltage?
No. I think superconductor technology involves the application of very
low temperatures which can lower the resistance of an electrical
conductor in a circuit.

I gave the conductivity characteristics of wood and fire as separate
examples of how the physics of high voltage can be remarkably different
from the physical variables commonly encountered in applications of
lower voltages.

My intentions were to create interest in the safety issues of high
voltage. In some situations curiosity can be a more powerful motivator
in learning than reason and responsibility.

Rusty Oxhide
Bill Penrose
2007-04-26 19:36:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rusty Oxhide
An ozone generator is not that difficult to make. Generators use a
source of high voltage, two electrode~dielectrics of large surface areas
and a supply of dry atmosphere bearing the O2 to be made into 03
(ozone).
A corona discharge ozone machine will also make nitrogen oxides, not a
good idea unless you use pure oxygen as a feed gas. Nitrogen oxides
are more persistent than ozone, so a space will require forced
ventilation after exposure. You can't simply wait for the ozone to
decay back to oxygen.

Short wavelength UV lamps will make ozone, but require more
maintenance and cost than corona discharge.

Dangerous Bill
N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)
2007-04-27 02:08:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Penrose
Post by Rusty Oxhide
An ozone generator is not that difficult to make. Generators
use a source of high voltage, two electrode~dielectrics of
large surface areas and a supply of dry atmosphere bearing
the O2 to be made into 03 (ozone).
A corona discharge ozone machine will also make nitrogen
oxides, not a good idea unless you use pure oxygen as a
feed gas.
Actually if you can get the dewpoint of the air down to -90 dec C
(around 1 ppm), then the oxides of nitrogen are much reduced
(even as feed gas). The NOx formed tends to be unstable and
decay much faster than the ozone does. As long as water is not
present. Then every word you have written is correct.
Post by Bill Penrose
Nitrogen oxides are more persistent than ozone, so a space
will require forced ventilation after exposure. You can't
simply
wait for the ozone to decay back to oxygen.
Short wavelength UV lamps will make ozone, but require more
maintenance and cost than corona discharge.
David A. Smith
Bill Penrose
2007-04-27 03:01:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)
Actually if you can get the dewpoint of the air down to -90 dec C
(around 1 ppm), then the oxides of nitrogen are much reduced
(even as feed gas). The NOx formed tends to be unstable and
decay much faster than the ozone does. As long as water is not
present.
Thanks. I did not know that.

DB
N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)
2007-04-27 04:24:34 UTC
Permalink
On Apr 26, 7:08 pm, "N:dlzc D:aol T:com \(dlzc\)"
Post by N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)
Actually if you can get the dewpoint of the air down to
-90 dec C (around 1 ppm), then the oxides of nitrogen
are much reduced (even as feed gas). The NOx
formed tends to be unstable and decay much faster
than the ozone does. As long as water is not
present.
Thanks. I did not know that.
I actually found a paper that was not published by the IOA, on
this topic...
http://www.iupac.org/publications/pac/1988/pdf/6005x0741.pdf

Nitrogen is really important in making ozone too. The folks that
make better than 20wt% ozone, require around 1/2wt% N2 in the
feed gas.

Now probably more than you wanted know... ;>)

David A. Smith
i***@rgassociates.ca
2017-10-31 17:39:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@yahoo.com.au
Ozone Generator -vs- Cat Urine Spray?
I was hoping to get some advice regarding the effectiveness of a small
Ozone Generator to deal with the smell of Cat Urine Spray indoors.....by
a de-sexed male cat. He is deliberately spraying, not simply taking a
much-needed piss. He is spraying on vertical surfaces.
There is almost nothing I don't know about the "territorial behaviour
issues", prevention, and cleaning. I have spoken to the local Vet in
great detail. I use an arsenal of special cleaners, and a Pheromone
preventative spray. I have also done a great deal of personal
research. Getting rid of the cat is definitely not an option.
Can you comment about Ozone Generators and their effectiveness? Bottom
line: If the Cat spraying is a persistent problem, is a small Ozone
Generator (with thorough cleaning) money well spent?
Thanks.
Frank
2018-11-06 12:23:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@yahoo.com.au
Ozone Generator -vs- Cat Urine Spray?
I was hoping to get some advice regarding the effectiveness of a small
Ozone Generator to deal with the smell of Cat Urine Spray indoors.....by
a de-sexed male cat. He is deliberately spraying, not simply taking a
much-needed piss. He is spraying on vertical surfaces.
There is almost nothing I don't know about the "territorial behaviour
issues", prevention, and cleaning. I have spoken to the local Vet in
great detail. I use an arsenal of special cleaners, and a Pheromone
preventative spray. I have also done a great deal of personal
research. Getting rid of the cat is definitely not an option.
Can you comment about Ozone Generators and their effectiveness? Bottom
line: If the Cat spraying is a persistent problem, is a small Ozone
Generator (with thorough cleaning) money well spent?
Thanks.
My son moved into a home last year and had it fumigated to rid of former
owners cooking smells. They no longer use ozone as it is too potent and
can harm items such as carpets and drapes in the home. I cannot recall
what was used.
i***@rgassociates.ca
2017-10-31 17:44:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@yahoo.com.au
Ozone Generator -vs- Cat Urine Spray?
I was hoping to get some advice regarding the effectiveness of a small
Ozone Generator to deal with the smell of Cat Urine Spray indoors.....by
a de-sexed male cat. He is deliberately spraying, not simply taking a
much-needed piss. He is spraying on vertical surfaces.
There is almost nothing I don't know about the "territorial behaviour
issues", prevention, and cleaning. I have spoken to the local Vet in
great detail. I use an arsenal of special cleaners, and a Pheromone
preventative spray. I have also done a great deal of personal
research. Getting rid of the cat is definitely not an option.
Can you comment about Ozone Generators and their effectiveness? Bottom
line: If the Cat spraying is a persistent problem, is a small Ozone
Generator (with thorough cleaning) money well spent?
Thanks.
I have the same problem as you... male neutered cat doing exactly the same.
I found a product a few years ago called Natures Miracle for Cats ( has to be the one that says cats only on it ) It is harmless to other animals and will not harm leather, fabrics or wooden floors. Also a few years ago I tried Feliway diffusers... they helped but one had a burning smell once and I stopped using them My vet told me a couple of months to try the new and " improved" version which I did... I started to use in on September 10th ... to date Charlie has sprayed 4 times... now thats a miracle !!!!! The smell has gone from my house as I got an ozone generator for a couple of days... What a difference it and the diffusers a
dr joseph
2018-11-06 11:44:02 UTC
Permalink
replying to shazlikd, dr joseph wrote:
the only thin that works is enzyme cleaners specifically for urine. This is an
old thread but for anyone browsing, theres a product called angry orange (you
can buy on amazon ) that works great, its important for the product to sit til
it air dries.. it can take days or weeks for the enzymes to eat the pee and
sometomes multiple treatments.
--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/maintenance/ozone-generator-vs-cat-urine-spray-208472-.htm
n***@sketchgrowl.com
2019-12-01 10:56:32 UTC
Permalink
Sorry for chiming in a bit late to the discussion, but I really feel like I need to add my 2 cents. Cats don't just pee on floors and beds because they're in pain - could be a multitude of other reasons! Most common is that male cats feel the need to mark their territory.

As for myself, I finally found something that works for the cat pee smell in my home!

What a relief to finally have gotten rid of the horrible cat pee smell, and without any expensive sprays at that.

Registered an account only to say this:

One of my 2 cats (both neutered males) had taken to painting all of my walls, furniture, and anything else he could reach. I was horrified when I got a UV light. He never did that in all of the 9 years I've had him and didn't when I got him a buddy (they love each other and did so right away) but when a strange black cat started showing up outside both of my cats went nuts and the older one (9) started his wall painting, as well as the curtains out in the kitty room. I couldn't keep up with it.

My cats are indoor cats so it's not like the stray is actually going to get in here but they both hate him (and he is weird...my neighbor's cats hate him too). I've tried cleaning with a pet urine enzyme and then spraying some "No More Spraying" but that hasn't worked.

He's a sneaky little bugger too; he waits until he thinks I'm not looking and then does it. He's learned that the minute I see him backing his butt up to something he gets yelled at. It wasn't until I found "Cat Spraying No More" that I was able to finally get rid of this tiresome behavior. Now my house doesn't smell like a litter box anymore :smile:

To be honest, I don't know too much about it so I did a quick Google search and here's a review I found: https://nomorecatpee.com/index.htm

I'm based in Germany, by the way, so you should be able to get it too. Good luck!
n***@sketchgrowl.com
2019-12-01 10:58:11 UTC
Permalink
Sorry for chiming in a bit late to the discussion, but I really feel like I need to add my 2 cents. Cats don't just pee on floors and beds because they're in pain - could be a multitude of other reasons! Most common is that male cats feel the need to mark their territory.

As for myself, I finally found something that works for the cat pee smell in my home!

What a relief to finally have gotten rid of the horrible cat pee smell, and without any expensive sprays at that.

Registered an account only to say this:

One of my 2 cats (both neutered males) had taken to painting all of my walls, furniture, and anything else he could reach. I was horrified when I got a UV light. He never did that in all of the 9 years I've had him and didn't when I got him a buddy (they love each other and did so right away) but when a strange black cat started showing up outside both of my cats went nuts and the older one (9) started his wall painting, as well as the curtains out in the kitty room. I couldn't keep up with it.

My cats are indoor cats so it's not like the stray is actually going to get in here but they both hate him (and he is weird...my neighbor's cats hate him too). I've tried cleaning with a pet urine enzyme and then spraying some "No More Spraying" but that hasn't worked.

He's a sneaky little bugger too; he waits until he thinks I'm not looking and then does it. He's learned that the minute I see him backing his butt up to something he gets yelled at. It wasn't until I found "Cat Spraying No More" that I was able to finally get rid of this tiresome behavior. Now my house doesn't smell like a litter box anymore :smile:

To be honest, I don't know too much about it so I did a quick Google search and here's a review I found: https://nomorecatpee.com/index.htm

I'm based in Germany, by the way, so you should be able to get it too. Good luck!
Nabil
2019-12-01 16:14:02 UTC
Permalink
replying to shazlikd, Nabil wrote:
Sorry for chiming in a bit late to the discussion, but I really feel like I
need to add my 2 cents. Cats don't just pee on floors and beds because they're
in pain - could be a multitude of other reasons! Most common is that male cats
feel the need to mark their territory.

As for myself, I finally found something that works for the cat pee smell in
my home!

What a relief to finally have gotten rid of the horrible cat pee smell, and
without any expensive sprays at that.

Registered an account only to say this:

One of my 2 cats (both neutered males) had taken to painting all of my walls,
furniture, and anything else he could reach. I was horrified when I got a UV
light. He never did that in all of the 9 years I've had him and didn't when I
got him a buddy (they love each other and did so right away) but when a
strange black cat started showing up outside both of my cats went nuts and the
older one (9) started his wall painting, as well as the curtains out in the
kitty room. I couldn't keep up with it.

My cats are indoor cats so it's not like the stray is actually going to get in
here but they both hate him (and he is weird...my neighbor's cats hate him
too). I've tried cleaning with a pet urine enzyme and then spraying some "No
More Spraying" but that hasn't worked.

He's a sneaky little bugger too; he waits until he thinks I'm not looking and
then does it. He's learned that the minute I see him backing his butt up to
something he gets yelled at. It wasn't until I found "Cat Spraying No More"
that I was able to finally get rid of this tiresome behavior. Now my house
doesn't smell like a litter box anymore :smile:


I'm based in Germany, by the way, so you should be able to get it too. Good
luck!

Jennie :)
--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/maintenance/ozone-generator-vs-cat-urine-spray-208472-.htm
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