Discussion:
ancient ice making
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RichD
2021-01-11 20:00:16 UTC
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How did they make ice, in the days before electricity?

And, did the inventors manage it empirically, without
education in thermodynamic theory? I admit,
without book learning, the compression/condensation/
evaporation cycle would never occur to me, it’s
far from intuitive.


Rich
Dean
2021-01-11 20:01:22 UTC
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Post by RichD
How did they make ice, in the days before electricity?
And, did the inventors manage it empirically, without
education in thermodynamic theory? I admit,
without book learning, the compression/condensation/
evaporation cycle would never occur to me, it’s
far from intuitive.

Rich
Ice was made by mother nature and chopped from the surfaces of frozen lakes, ponds and rivers.
Frank
2021-01-12 17:16:44 UTC
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Post by Dean
Post by RichD
How did they make ice, in the days before electricity?
And, did the inventors manage it empirically, without
education in thermodynamic theory? I admit,
without book learning, the compression/condensation/
evaporation cycle would never occur to me, it’s
far from intuitive.

Rich
Ice was made by mother nature and chopped from the surfaces of frozen lakes, ponds and rivers.
Also:

"During the winter, ice and snow would be taken into the ice house and
insulated against melting with straw or sawdust. It would stay frozen
for many months, even until the following winter."

Neighbor with pre-revolutionary house has one on his property.
Carl
2021-01-12 22:01:48 UTC
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Post by Frank
Post by Dean
Post by RichD
How did they make ice, in the days before electricity?
And, did the inventors manage it empirically, without
education in thermodynamic theory? I admit,
without book learning, the compression/condensation/
evaporation cycle would never occur to me, it’s
far from intuitive.

Rich
Ice was made by mother nature and chopped from the surfaces of frozen
lakes, ponds and rivers.
"During the winter, ice and snow would be taken into the ice house and
insulated against melting with straw or sawdust. It would stay frozen for
many months, even until the following winter."
Neighbor with pre-revolutionary house has one on his property.
They also made "slush ponds" to greatly improve the ice yield from a pond in
winter - draw water from the bottom of a pond and spray it into the air so
it falls back onto the surface of the pond. Would either freeze in the air
or form a wet layer on the surface of existing ice that would then freeze,
pushing the ice mass deeper into the pond until eventually the entire pond
was frozen. Otherwise as the surface of a pond freezes it protects the
underlying water from evaporative cooling and insulates it from the cold air
so you get much less ice from a given nighttime temperature.
--
Regards,
Carl Ijames
Andy Burns
2021-01-12 10:46:25 UTC
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Post by RichD
How did they make ice, in the days before electricity?
Steam engines used to compress ammonia


Troll
2021-01-26 23:42:57 UTC
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Post by RichD
How did they make ice, in the days before electricity?
And, did the inventors manage it empirically, without
education in thermodynamic theory? I admit,
without book learning, the compression/condensation/
evaporation cycle would never occur to me, it’s
far from intuitive.

Rich
Other posts here are good about making ice.

Then before electric or mechanical refrigerators
there was a matter of refrigeration in houses.

There was of course until the 1950s and 1960s
the ice man that delivered ice to people's ice
boxes in their homes on a nearly daily basis
and put ice into ice chests.

Then there were milk men that did the same for
milk.

If you start using the word 'ancient' however
and compare it with 'classical' it is not obvious
how far back that might go regardless of an official
invention of refrigeration. There are other ways to
preserve food.
RichD
2021-02-16 22:55:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Troll
Post by RichD
How did they make ice, in the days before electricity?
And, did the inventors manage it empirically, without
education in thermodynamic theory? I admit,
without book learning, the compression/condensation/
evaporation cycle would never occur to me, it’s
far from intuitive.
Then before electric or mechanical refrigerators
there was a matter of refrigeration in houses.
If you start using the word 'ancient' however
and compare it with 'classical' it is not obvious
how far back that might go regardless of an official
invention of refrigeration. There are other ways to
preserve food.
The most interesting question is whether it's possible to invent refrigeration,
without studying Carnot, Clausius, and that crowd.

Doesn't it seem like magic, as per Arthur Clarke's definition?

Anyhow, I was reading a historical novel of S. Africa, the diamond
mines, and as they prospered, a town elder says, "Pretty soon we're
going to get ice delivered here."

This was about 1880, and I wonder, where did the ice come from?

--
Rich
Krzysztof Mitko
2021-02-17 10:51:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by RichD
Post by Troll
Post by RichD
How did they make ice, in the days before electricity?
And, did the inventors manage it empirically, without
education in thermodynamic theory? I admit,
without book learning, the compression/condensation/
evaporation cycle would never occur to me, it’s
far from intuitive.
Then before electric or mechanical refrigerators
there was a matter of refrigeration in houses.
If you start using the word 'ancient' however
and compare it with 'classical' it is not obvious
how far back that might go regardless of an official
invention of refrigeration. There are other ways to
preserve food.
The most interesting question is whether it's possible to invent refrigeration,
without studying Carnot, Clausius, and that crowd.
A lot of times in history theory came after practice :). The steam engines
were in operation decades before laws of thermodynamics were formulated (in
fact the reason Carnot started his studies is to increase the efficiency of
already existing machines), I see no reason why it couldn't happened with
refrigeration as well.
Post by RichD
Doesn't it seem like magic, as per Arthur Clarke's definition?
Anyhow, I was reading a historical novel of S. Africa, the diamond
mines, and as they prospered, a town elder says, "Pretty soon we're
going to get ice delivered here."
This was about 1880, and I wonder, where did the ice come from?
--
Rich
--
The generation of random numbers is too important to be left to chance.
dlzc
2021-02-17 13:54:45 UTC
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Dear RichD:

On Tuesday, February 16, 2021 at 3:55:13 PM UTC-7, RichD wrote:
...
Post by RichD
The most interesting question is whether it's possible to
invent refrigeration, without studying Carnot, Clausius,
and that crowd.
Evaporative cooling was known. The underground cooling passages in Iran have shown evidence of ice formation, when the air's dewpoint is very low. And they had seen condensation (not freezing) with compressed air systems... not much of a stretch to refrigeration using air as the refrigerant.
Post by RichD
Doesn't it seem like magic, as per Arthur Clarke's definition?
Peltier cells do, for sure, even now.
Post by RichD
Anyhow, I was reading a historical novel of S. Africa, the diamond
mines, and as they prospered, a town elder says, "Pretty soon we're
going to get ice delivered here."
This was about 1880, and I wonder, where did the ice come from?
Easy, shipped from the South Pole, then via train over land. Diamond mining was very profitable.

David A. Smith

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