Mythbusters Breaking Bad special

[Yousuf Khan]

They just had the Mythbusters-Breaking Bad special on Discovery Channel.
The Mythbusters took on some of the plot elements of the Breaking Bad
series over the years. One of them was about Hydro-Fluoric Acid eating
through human flesh and even a bathtub and building drywall. They found
that hydrofluoric acid wasn't strong enough, so they quickly switched to
sulphuric acid. They also talked about adding a "special sauce" to
sulphuric acid to turbocharge its reactions. They wouldn't reveal the
special sauce, so as not to let the public know about it. But they did
reveal at one point that this sauce just adds a lot of hydrogen and
oxygen to the reaction. So I'm thinking it's either water or hydrogen
peroxide. What do you think?

Yousuf Khan

[s***@hotmail.com]

They just had the Mythbusters-Breaking Bad special on Discovery Channel. The Mythbusters took on some of the plot elements of the Breaking Bad series over the years. One of them was about Hydro-Fluoric Acid eating through human flesh and even a bathtub and building drywall. They found that hydrofluoric acid wasn't strong enough, so they quickly switched to sulphuric acid. They also talked about adding a "special sauce" to sulphuric acid to turbocharge its reactions. They wouldn't reveal the special sauce, so as not to let the public know about it. But they did reveal at one point that this sauce just adds a lot of hydrogen and oxygen to the reaction. So I'm thinking it's either water or hydrogen peroxide. What do you think? Yousuf Khan

HF will "eat through" flesh but the visible reaction isn't fast.
Ditto its reaction with ceramic, other silicats, and calcium
compounds such as drywall. For that matter, I can't think of
ANYTHING that will react quickly with drywall.

Anhydrous/fuming sulfuric acid will attack some things that conc.
sulfuric won't, and vice versa. It's possible that they started with
anhydrous sulfuric and added a bit of water to it, but it doesn't
seem likely.

Conc. sulfuric + conc. hydrogen peroxide is a powerful oxidizer.
Ditto conc. sulfuric + conc. nitric acid. If the reaction gave off
brown fumes, it would be because of the nitric. Other oxidizers are
also possible: chromate, permanganate, etc. If you "know" that
the change was due to only "hydrogen and oxygen", then the peroxide
is a likely candidate. Can you describe that "special sauce"?

All of these reactions are dangerous of course. Don't try this at
home, kids. You have been warned. If you get killed, don't come
whining to me about it.

[Yousuf Khan]

Post by s***@hotmail.com
Conc. sulfuric + conc. hydrogen peroxide is a powerful oxidizer.
Ditto conc. sulfuric + conc. nitric acid. If the reaction gave off
brown fumes, it would be because of the nitric. Other oxidizers are
also possible: chromate, permanganate, etc. If you "know" that
the change was due to only "hydrogen and oxygen", then the peroxide
is a likely candidate. Can you describe that "special sauce"?

Well, they had blanked out the labels of the bottles in which the
"special sauce" came in, to avoid tipping off people what it was. But
the chemical bottles were the standard industrial translucent plastic
chemical containers (similar to these bottles,
http://tinyurl.com/l9uxvwd). Now if the special sauce were only water,
then I'd gather that it wouldn't have come in chemical bottles, but they
could do it just to make it look more dramatic on tv. But I suspect
hydrogen peroxide for this reason.

Yousuf Khan

[Peter Fairbrother]

Post by Yousuf Khan

Post by s***@hotmail.com
Conc. sulfuric + conc. hydrogen peroxide is a powerful oxidizer.
Ditto conc. sulfuric + conc. nitric acid. If the reaction gave off
brown fumes, it would be because of the nitric. Other oxidizers are
also possible: chromate, permanganate, etc. If you "know" that
the change was due to only "hydrogen and oxygen", then the peroxide
is a likely candidate. Can you describe that "special sauce"?

Well, they had blanked out the labels of the bottles in which the
"special sauce" came in, to avoid tipping off people what it was. But
the chemical bottles were the standard industrial translucent plastic
chemical containers (similar to these bottles,
http://tinyurl.com/l9uxvwd). Now if the special sauce were only water,
then I'd gather that it wouldn't have come in chemical bottles, but they
could do it just to make it look more dramatic on tv. But I suspect
hydrogen peroxide for this reason.
Yousuf Khan

Puhleeze. It's piranha juice. They even said they were using 30%.

Damn lucky not to get injured or killed though. I wouldn't be anywhere
near when 30+ gallons of piranha juice were being mixed up, nevermind
with a pig in it beforehand too.

They reminded me more of kids playing around with dangerous chemicals,
not knowing what they were doing and making a mess, than they did
scientists or even techs trying to replicate the events in the Breaking
Bad program.





Oh, BTW - what ever happened to "always add acid"?

"If you want a life that's placid
Then you know you didn't oughter
Add the water to the acid
'stead of acid to the water.

Always add acid!"

(works #good at parties too)

The modern recommended way to make PJ is frequently given as "add the
special sauce" to the acid, rather than adding the acid to the sauce.

Anyone know why?



-- Peter Fairbrother

[dlzc]

Dear Yousuf Khan:

On Monday, August 19, 2013 8:15:09 AM UTC-7, Yousuf Khan wrote:
...

Now if the special sauce were only water, then I'd
gather that it wouldn't have come in chemical
bottles, but they could do it just to make it
look more dramatic on tv. But I suspect hydrogen
peroxide for this reason.

In general, hydrogen peroxide will ship only in opaque brown bottles. Subject to obfuscation for TV of course. Visible light enhances catalytic breakdown of hydrogen peroxide, if there are any iron atoms floating in there...

David A. Smith

[Yousuf Khan]

Post by dlzc
...

Now if the special sauce were only water, then I'd
gather that it wouldn't have come in chemical
bottles, but they could do it just to make it
look more dramatic on tv. But I suspect hydrogen
peroxide for this reason.

In general, hydrogen peroxide will ship only in opaque brown bottles. Subject to obfuscation for TV of course. Visible light enhances catalytic breakdown of hydrogen peroxide, if there are any iron atoms floating in there...

Then it must've been water. If H-P oxidizes iron, they tried to break
down a cast iron and a steel tub material with this stuff, and it barely
fizzled.

BTW, what are these chemical containers that these acids come in made
from? They don't seem to react with the acid at all. Some plastics seem
to react extensively to acid, while others don't.

Yousuf Khan

[Martin Brown]

Post by Yousuf Khan

Post by dlzc
...

Now if the special sauce were only water, then I'd
gather that it wouldn't have come in chemical
bottles, but they could do it just to make it
look more dramatic on tv. But I suspect hydrogen
peroxide for this reason.

In general, hydrogen peroxide will ship only in opaque brown bottles.
Subject to obfuscation for TV of course. Visible light enhances
catalytic breakdown of hydrogen peroxide, if there are any iron atoms
floating in there...

Wouldn't make much difference for a few hours though. Without having
seen the clip if they were both clear liquids then it was almost
certainly piranha cleaning solution so named because of what it does.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piranha_solution

Widely used in the semiconductor industry as is HF.

Post by Yousuf Khan
Then it must've been water. If H-P oxidizes iron, they tried to break
down a cast iron and a steel tub material with this stuff, and it barely
fizzled.

Iron and steel can surface passivate in a strong oxidising environment
with a thick oxide coat on it just like aluminium does in air.
"Stainless" steel relies on adding the right amount of the right
impurities for it to form an oxide barrier at NTP and 20% O2.

Post by Yousuf Khan
BTW, what are these chemical containers that these acids come in made
from? They don't seem to react with the acid at all. Some plastics seem
to react extensively to acid, while others don't.

Mostly polythene or similar and you can make them a lot more robust by
blowing the bottle with a N2/F2 mix which puts a layer of fluorocarbon
polymer on the inside surface. Now done for common solvent bottles too.

Plastic is just about the only thing that does resist HF. This program
sounds like a particularly bad example of myth busting since HF is
notorious as a vicious chemical that regularly inflicts severe injuries
on anyone that makes the slightest mistake handling it. The HF safety
film is usually expected to cause audience casualties when it is shown
to people who will be working with the stuff. The flesh isn't visibly
different when dead but is killed by the effects of the acid. The wounds
it causes are extremely unpleasant and take ages to heal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrofluoric_acid

More insidious is the way that HF takes out the nerve cells first so you
don't feel the damage being done until it is too late. Immediate
application of calcium glutamate gel antidote will give some level of
protection and you should always have a tube to hand. Calcium fluoride
is one of the least soluble salts known and locks up the fluoride ions.

I think it is the height of irresponsibility to play down the danger of
this stuff by showing that it doesn't actually *dissolve* the flesh - it
merely kills living flesh and keeps on going until it hits bone.

[Yousuf Khan]

Post by Martin Brown

Post by Yousuf Khan

Post by dlzc
In general, hydrogen peroxide will ship only in opaque brown bottles.
Subject to obfuscation for TV of course. Visible light enhances
catalytic breakdown of hydrogen peroxide, if there are any iron atoms
floating in there...

Wouldn't make much difference for a few hours though. Without having
seen the clip if they were both clear liquids then it was almost
certainly piranha cleaning solution so named because of what it does.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piranha_solution
Widely used in the semiconductor industry as is HF.

Oh, so Piranha solution is a real thing? Another poster was calling it
"piranha juice", which I looked up and it seemed to be a music video of
some kind, so I assumed it was a joke.

So this stuff is a mixture of sulphuric acid and hydrogen peroxide, just
as I thought.

Post by Martin Brown

Post by Yousuf Khan
BTW, what are these chemical containers that these acids come in made
from? They don't seem to react with the acid at all. Some plastics seem
to react extensively to acid, while others don't.

Mostly polythene or similar and you can make them a lot more robust by
blowing the bottle with a N2/F2 mix which puts a layer of fluorocarbon
polymer on the inside surface. Now done for common solvent bottles too.

Okay, thanks.

Yousuf Khan

[Bruce Sinclair]

Post by Yousuf Khan

Post by Martin Brown

Post by dlzc
In general, hydrogen peroxide will ship only in opaque brown bottles.
Subject to obfuscation for TV of course. Visible light enhances
catalytic breakdown of hydrogen peroxide, if there are any iron atoms
floating in there...

Wouldn't make much difference for a few hours though. Without having
seen the clip if they were both clear liquids then it was almost
certainly piranha cleaning solution so named because of what it does.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piranha_solution
Widely used in the semiconductor industry as is HF.

Oh, so Piranha solution is a real thing? Another poster was calling it
"piranha juice", which I looked up and it seemed to be a music video of
some kind, so I assumed it was a joke.
So this stuff is a mixture of sulphuric acid and hydrogen peroxide, just
as I thought.

Note - this stuff is bloody dangerous !
I was intending to use it to clean up some scintered glass ... until I read
the wikipedia article. :)

Suggest findign an alternative if you possibly can.

[Yousuf Khan]

Post by Bruce Sinclair

Post by Yousuf Khan
So this stuff is a mixture of sulphuric acid and hydrogen peroxide, just
as I thought.

Note - this stuff is bloody dangerous !
I was intending to use it to clean up some scintered glass ... until I read
the wikipedia article. :)
Suggest findign an alternative if you possibly can.

I have no intention of using it, obviously. Just wanted to know what it was.

Yousuf Khan

[Bruce Sinclair]

Post by Yousuf Khan

Post by s***@hotmail.com
Conc. sulfuric + conc. hydrogen peroxide is a powerful oxidizer.
Ditto conc. sulfuric + conc. nitric acid. If the reaction gave off
brown fumes, it would be because of the nitric. Other oxidizers are
also possible: chromate, permanganate, etc. If you "know" that
the change was due to only "hydrogen and oxygen", then the peroxide
is a likely candidate. Can you describe that "special sauce"?

Well, they had blanked out the labels of the bottles in which the
"special sauce" came in, to avoid tipping off people what it was. But
the chemical bottles were the standard industrial translucent plastic
chemical containers (similar to these bottles,
http://tinyurl.com/l9uxvwd). Now if the special sauce were only water,
then I'd gather that it wouldn't have come in chemical bottles, but they
could do it just to make it look more dramatic on tv. But I suspect
hydrogen peroxide for this reason.

Sadly, you can buy AR and HPLC grade water - it's expensive (of course :) ).

Interestingly, a paper I saw comparing water quality a while back suggested
the "cleanest" water actually came out of a (presumably new or regularly
maintained :) ) home water purification cartridge. :) :)